"Rules" for alternating fingers in 2-finger plucking?

[vindibona1]

I eventually want to become a very good bass player. So far I've gotten by because I can play acoustic and electric guitar fairly well and used to play bass back in the late 60's when things weren't so advanced or complicated. We'd only use a thumb or a single finger. Becoming a better player will require more discipline and at least knowing the "rules" so I'm at least conscious of them should I break them. The left hand isn't an issue, but left/right coordination and synchronization is when things get moving. I don't want to continue practicing things that will hold me back. So I need some clarity on the "rules" of plucking.

When I pluck naturally I'm almost unaware of what I'm doing. Sometimes I use one finger, sometimes I alternate and sometimes I rake when changing from a high string to a lower string. I find that when going from low stings to higher strings I naturally want to reach with my middle finger (M) and vice versa for crossing to lower strings from higher. Or more confusing yet, sometimes when I'm finishing a higher string on M, moving to a lower string it naturally wants to use the tension from that pluck to rake to the next lowest string. It's all subconscious and I'm sure full of bad habits that I'll need to break by paying attention.

I could revert to a pick, and will for some things, but I really want to establish how to approach 2-finger plucking. Are there a set of "rules" for which finger (M or I) to begin with? Does it change with the situation, or do you always just alternate MIMIMI? When it is advantageous to rake to the next string? Should I cease doing that for the moment until I get alternating under my belt?

Thanks in advance for considering and answering my questions.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I think you have reached "step two", aka, let the fingers decide what works best. If the middle finger can get there why not let it?

 

[jallenbass]

I like to start with my index finger but one should practice being comfortable starting with either one.

I notice that when I'm having a hard time with a line it's often because my fingers are not strictly alternating. Once I get that worked out everything is usually fine.

 

[vindibona1]

I think you have reached "step two", aka, let the fingers decide what works best. If the middle finger can get there why not let it?

That's a good question. My immediate answer is- I don't know. In a parallel universe I've taught Alpine Skiing for 30 years. In that universe we have a saying: "Bad habits take 20 minutes to learn and 20 years to un-learn". I've got some natural tendencies which are carry overs from the old days and playing guitar. On electric I've worked hard to develop "efficiency picking". Now I do it subconsciously and I think part of it is carrying over to bass. And the subconscious part... The cerebrum in my brain has to work overtime to monitor what my right hand is doing. My fingers just "go" and as you say, they decide what's best automatically. But I know I have to learn to play cleaner and faster.

I really need to take some private lessons. But finding the right teacher is difficult, even in a city as large as Chicago.

 

[vindibona1]

I like to start with my index finger but one should practice being comfortable starting with either one.

I notice that when I'm having a hard time with a line it's often because my fingers are not strictly alternating. Once I get that worked out everything is usually fine.

I'm thinking that's where I'm at now. I have to get to be able to alternate cleanly and evenly with either finger. Made me think of when I was learning paradiddles and other rudiments in percussion class. I have to be way more conscious of the inflections as I play to make sure each note speaks, that accents are accented as I envision. Right now I'd classify my playing is ok, but sloppy and uneven. Gotta fix that.

 

[two fingers]

Yep. Alternating fingers perfectly during scales and finger exercises is practicing the fundamentals. You do it so you become equally comfortable plucking with either finger.

Once the music starts, forget all that and play the song. If you have trained your fingers well, they will know where to go. If you start thinking too hard about alternatimg fingerd, you'll lose the groove.

I love baseball. So everything comes back to baseball. You practice using perfect technique when fielding a ground ball. You track the ball your coach just hit with yoiur eyes. You get in front of the ball. You block it so even if it does a "bad hop" you're in front of it. When you catch the ball you concentrate on covering it up while you stand, draw back, take aim, take one hop and launch the ball perfectly to the first baseman.

In a game, the bat cracks. Stop the ball and get it to first. Forget the fundamentals. Some of them should be automatic. Some of them will fly out the window because there's no time for perfect. Stop the ball the throw it to first.

The same goes for bass. You practice the fundamentals at home. Scales and finger exercises. Over and over. But when the drummer clicks the sticks four times, forget all that crap and jam.

 

[vindibona1]

Yep. Alternating fingers perfectly during scales and finger exercises is practicing the fundamentals. You do it so you become equally comfortable plucking with either finger.

Once the music starts, forget all that and play the song. If you have trained your fingers well, they will know where to go. If you start thinking too hard about alternatimg fingerd, you'll lose the groove.

I love baseball. So everything comes back to baseball. You practice using perfect technique when fielding a ground ball. You track the ball your coach just hit with yoiur eyes. You get in front of the ball. You block it so even if it does a "bad hop" you're in front of it. When you catch the ball you concentrate on covering it up while you stand, draw back, take aim, take one hop and launch the ball perfectly to the first baseman.

In a game, the bat cracks. Stop the ball and get it to first. Forget the fundamentals. Some of them should be automatic. Some of them will fly out the window because there's no time for perfect. Stop the ball the throw it to first.

The same goes for bass. You practice the fundamentals at home. Scales and finger exercises. Over and over. But when the drummer clicks the sticks four times, forget all that crap and jam.

I agree with this entirely. I just need to be told the right fundamentals to practice at home. When I'm learning something new and technical to perform I want my fingers just to go there without even thinking about it. The problem is that I have to be SO very deliberate at this stage and strangely can't tell which finger is plucking at the time unless I focus and go "1 2 1 2 1 2" as I pluck. No clue at all what my fingers on my right hand are doing. So, at this point my practice is slowing down and becoming conscious so that habitually I can become unconscious again... but do the things that will the notes and articulation clear, treating each note as a pearl in a string.

 

[vindibona1]

Update...

I needed a starting place to practice in a logical and repeatable way. And a couple days ago I came across this (YouTube video below). It seems to take advantage of my natural inclination to rake and creates a basic set of rules around it. I've been practicing the basic C major scale for a couple days (as shown in the vid) and can already feel an improvement in my consistency and smoothness.

Just thought I'd share...

 

[dreamadream99]

efficiency picking

That’s a good term for it.

When I first started out I didn’t think too much about fingering while playing Hot Cross Buns.

As I got faster and started playing along to more complicated lines, I discovered the need for an economy of motion. That’s when I discovered using the same finger from the last note on a string to the first note on the next lower string (raking), alternating fingers for successive 8th and 16th lines, and splitting fingers across strings for multi-string jumps (like octaves). I discovered all this while practicing, and just worked out the most efficient solution. After that it became second nature. Eventually I no longer had to think about it.

If you are at the Hot Cross Buns stage in your development, don’t worry about it yet.
If you’re at the consecutive 16ths phase, work out the most efficient way in private.
If you’re at the no-longer-have-to-think-about-it stage, then don’t think about it anymore.

 

[vindibona1]

...As I got faster and started playing along to more complicated lines, I discovered the need for an economy of motion. That’s when I discovered using the same finger from the last note on a string to the first note on the next lower string (raking), alternating fingers for successive 8th and 16th lines, and splitting fingers across strings for multi-string jumps (like octaves). I discovered all this while practicing, and just worked out the most efficient solution.
If you’re at the consecutive 16ths phase, work out the most efficient way in private.

I think that's where I'm at now. I can cheat and get by with a pick, but while the pick can be a good aid in a jam, it can also be limiting. I'm actually messing around with a hybrid technique, but it's kind of hard to do a slap with a pick . I need to develop two finger speed and consistency.

I've been listening to the Tower of Power tune, What is Hip? and can't believe how long the bass player has to go on with a 16th note ostinato! Seems like physical and mental torture.

 

[dreamadream99]

I think that's where I'm at now [developing a system to play faster lines more efficiently]

OK, then here’s some ideas to get you started toward efficient fingerings in fast passages:

• On the same string. Strict alternation is the most efficient. Two strokes from the same finger will be twice as slow. It does not matter which finger starts or stops the pattern. Also start integrating your ring finger on passages based on sets of threes.
• Ascending. Strict alternation as well.
• Descending. Rake the last finger to play current string down to initiate first note on next string.
• Octaves. First finger on low string; second finger on high string, and alternate. *for disco with double high octave, try thumb on lower note, first and second fingers on higher octave.

Reminder: work these out in private, till you are good enough to reliably incorporate them in performance. “Don’t just practice till you get it right; practice until you can no longer get it wrong.”

 

[vindibona1]

OK, then here’s some ideas to get you started toward efficient fingerings in fast passages:

• On the same string. Strict alternation is the most efficient. Two strokes from the same finger will be twice as slow. It does not matter which finger starts or stops the pattern. Also start integrating your ring finger on passages based on sets of threes.
• Ascending. Strict alternation as well.
• Descending. Rake the last finger to play current string down to initiate first note on next string.
• Octaves. First finger on low string; second finger on high string, and alternate. *for disco with double high octave, try thumb on lower note, first and second fingers on higher octave.

Reminder: work these out in private, till you are good enough to reliably incorporate them in performance. “Don’t just practice till you get it right; practice until you can no longer get it wrong.”

It seems I'm already doing ALL of those things. Interestingly, the third finger seems to have started employing itself naturally and almost automatically. The video (posted above) by Scott Devine created some rules for me that made sense and felt relatively natural. I don't find raking a problem as I've worked on efficiency picking in my guitar playing where I just continue the motion of up or down across strings as called for. With bass the difference is that we only use it to go from high strings to low strings and alternate going from low to high.

Where I still get hung up technically is when occassional I'll strike twice with the same finger unconsciously. It's most prevalent when there is a musical "break" in the rhythm and would be like when a drummer strikes twice with one hand because it would be awkward to momentarily pause only to strike the the opposite hand, while more natural to keep the motion of both hands, but only striking with one. Metaphorically it is like skipping where it is more natural to hop on the same foot twice rather than alternating as in running. The problem isn't there, but when there isn't a rhythmic reason to strike twice with the same finger... and I do it not only without realizing it, but without feeling that I've done it. That's where and why I have to make alternating habitual in all same-string or ascending passages for now. I realize that if I don't learn to alternate fluidly I'll never develop any real speed.

 

[dreamadream99]

occassionaly I'll strike twice with the same finger unconsciously. It's most prevalent when there is a musical "break" in the rhythm

There is nothing wrong with this. If there’s a pause or rest between notes, it truly doesn’t matter which finger resumes the pattern. In fact, if you listen to Rocco et al, they often fill those spaces with ghost notes or string clicks by continuing the alternation.

The problem only comes in, as you mentioned, when you accidentally finger two fast consecutive notes with the same finger. That never happens with me, so it’s hard to divine a reason. When my brain is in fast note mode, my fingers are flying, and alternating.

 

[mrcbass]

Yeah, kind of in the same boat. When I first started playing, I was looking to just get ready for the band I was planning to play with and did what I had to make the songs work. Using two plucking fingers tripped me up to no end, so I just went with the one finger attack, sometimes using the nail of the finger like a pick upstroke when doing those 1/8th note pedals.

I've been spending a little time along the way to get the middle finger into the mix and am finding it to be quite challenging. (Always naturally resort to "what works" when I get into a line.) I 've been using Devine's method as a basis for the "right way" to do it, but I am ultimately a "whatever works" kind of guy and find that I don't strictly follow the alternating pattern. I am slowly incorporating the middle finger and sometimes it just naturally happens. Sure wish I'd had a few months to get myself up to speed so I could have learned right, because this is one old trick that is hard to unlearn.

 

[dreamadream99]

one finger attack, sometimes using the nail of the finger like a pick upstroke

This can be used to fine effect in certain passages, but the sound is too different to play steady sustained articulations. The goal of using two fingers should be no discernible sonic difference between the two.

Spend some time practicing repeated 16ths with both fingers, working to achieve uniformity. For versatility’s sake, sometimes start with index; sometimes with middle.

 

[vindibona1]

...Sure wish I'd had a few months to get myself up to speed so I could have learned right, because this is one old trick that is hard to unlearn.

That's why I started this thread. To get answers of where to start before building any habits that become miserable to break. I'm thinking I'm on the right track, but there are some natural tendencies that have become habituated that aren't so wonderful, so I'm trying to nip those in the bud before I'm so far along there's little I can do.

 

[rufus.K]

Stop having rules

 

[vindibona1]

Stop having rules

But if there were no rules, how would I know which ones to break?

 

[thewildest]

In my experience, I ended not being able to submit my plucking hand to a set of artificial rules. The brain has its own way to resolve patterns and I got to the point that these patterns were in the way of what the hand naturally wanted to do... in other words, resutls were great, no discomfort and my strategy to adoctrinate my plucking technique was getting me the opposite results.

My only suggestion to consider is to add fingers (I use 4, T I M R) to enable your brain to “pull more resources” to work when they are needed.

I am very satisfied with the return of investment spent to lean how to use 4 fingers (similar to a classical guitar player) and I will recommend learning this to every bass player. You may choose to use 1 or 2 in 95% of your applications but having these tools available comes (no pun intended) very handy most of the time

I hope this helps, all the best,

 

[James Collins]

The most important thing is that you are playing in time. Like how do you get a consistent 1st beat accent playing in 5/4 time with two fingers on one string. Or how to handle triplets. I play too much by feel and that is hard to give up on and relearn so that I'm accenting properly and note lengths are consistent.

Number of fingers and rules can be forgiven if your notes are correct and you don't hurt yourself. Some people play with that chicken wing single finger technique and sound better than me playing with 3 fingers and a thumb.