Double Bass Simandle Book 2, French Bow

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Bass Man Kirk

Dec 27, 2015
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#1
HI everyone, it has been a while since I had posted on this forum. Last time I posted I was strictly a German Simandle bow play. but I had hook up with a teacher who in the 1940's had switched from the violin to double bass here in the Syracuse New York area named Joe Stagnita (now 94 years old) a few years back. He had a chance to play for the Tommy Dorsey Big Band and he turned it down due to Mr. Dorsey reputation of not being kind to his musicians.

And he had worked on my French Bow playing and since he had taken the time to correct my technique on the French Bow, I had given up all together playing the German Bow all together. I just find it is a lot easier then the German Bow for me even though I have been playing German Bow since my Sophomore year of college when I had switched from tuba to bass.

I had studied with other bass teacher in my area as well over the years. Now have really shredded through Simandle Book 1, and the etudes on and off the last 20 sum years. I had somewhat doved into Simandle Book 2. But really not has serious has I should off. So within the next couple of weeks I will be starting lessons up with Joe again, and he will be working on Simandle Book 2 with me until I am done with it. I do have other method books, like the Nanny, but I always come back to the Simandle, not only for it simplicity but I find it is better set up and more organized than the other Classical methods.

Also even though my teacher, he will be working on more improving my classical technique on the bass, he does have me sight chord charts, and jazz standards while he plays the piano, to help me keep up my skills that area of interests of my bass playing as well. He says play everything, that how we make money as bass players. I do use thumb position a lot in my jazz playing as well.

My question is to anyone of you that went all the way through Book 2, did you find it helpful in really taking your playing to the next level on the Bass?
 
#2
To be honest I never really liked Simandl book 2. I have done about half of the book in the past and also a few things with the double stops and harmonics. There are some useful things in it from a technical perspective but the pieces are not very musical and a bit boring. Better to play from the classical standard repertoire pieces if you ask me. Or use the Simandl book 2 next to other more musical pieces. Working from it from page 1 to the end and not doing anything else can be frustrating I think.
 
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#3
thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. What I really need help doing is getting better tenor and alto clefs reading down to were my treble and bass clef reading is. Where they are second nature. I know where the notes are on the higher positions, and I do play trombone and tuba, but I cheated on the trombone when reading those clefs I transposed them as if I was reading for E flat instruments. but now that I am strictly a string player, I just would like to get were I can pick up my bass and be able to place the note on the fret-board without thinking what the note is. That is why I am think of using the Simandle 2, so it can become second nature to me. unless you have a suggestion on reading those clefs on the string bass. I do know the cello have clef studies books, I do have the Freddrick Zimmerman Bass Solo Book as well, but before I dive back into them again, I was to get my Alto and tenor Clef reading on the bass more solid. Can you make a suggestion to help me out there.
 
#4
Kirk, you might also like to try Marcello Sonatas for Double Bass/Cello and piano...Specifically the Shirmer Edition as you will get both the bass and cello parts in addition to the piano part. The Cello Parts use Tenor Clef fairly extensively, and you can always revert back to. The. Bass part for a cheater. If you really like Simandl, I also recommend you get the Simandl 30 exudes book, and start learning them up an octave. They. Are. Great fundamental exudes for the money positions, and once mastered, work equally well an octave higher.
 
#5
thanks, i do have the Simandle etudes, have had them since i had made the switch from tuba to bass, and i use them every day for sight reading purposes. Also i do have the the two editions of the Simandle, the one by Zimmerman and Sanky. I prefer the later. since Sanky provides alternative positions and fingerings. And makes one think outside the box. Also I did refigured out how to the read the tenor clef, using an old trombone book I had for cleff studies by Fink. All one have to do is think of it kind of like treble cleff just one note down plus an octave. Now even though I started off has a Classical Bassist in College, I also find very helpful using some the Jazz Bassist material out there for playing the double bass, like the Evolving Bass by Rufus Reed it has some good bowing exercises and scales exercises that a Classical Bassist can use also in making their technique better, for playing.
 
#6
Other than "improving my classical technique on the bass" what are your current goals? Are you looking to (or currently) playing in an orchestra in your area? Are you hoping to play more classical chamber music/start/join a string ensemble? Are you focusing on solo repertoire? Are you aiming for a recital? Do you teach? Is that another goal? While "get better" is a great idea, it is also very difficult to measure, and can be a challenging goal because the destination is quite ambiguous.

If your goal is orchestral playing or improving your orchestral playing, then I would focus on adding excerpts to your lessons and practice sessions. Double Bass Orchestral Excerpts - Double Bass Excerpts has a lot of the more common ones and recordings as well. you can find full parts for most anything that is public domain on IMSLP/Petrucci Music Library: Free Public Domain Sheet Music which is a fantastic resource because there are plenty of parts that traditionally are not considered "excerpts" but are quite difficult, and it's much more beneficial to be prepared for all of a symphony instead of just a few little sound bites here and there. You can buy physical copies of excerpts with suggested fingerings, bowings, and articulations, and I believe there are Zimmermann editions of the full Beethoven symphonies as well.

If your goal is classical chamber music, then you want to get your hands on those pieces as well. There really aren't that many well known works out there, and the Trout Piano Quintet by Schubert, String Quintet no. 2 op. 77 by Dvorak, Quintet in G minor op. 39 by Prokofiev, and the Piano Quintet in C minor by Vaughan Williams (a personal favourite) are some of the big "pillars" of chamber music involving bass, but there are plenty of others out there as well. 4000 Chamber Works That is a pretty good list of what is out there, and then it's just a question of getting your hands on it. If your goal is not strictly "classical" chamber music, or you find yourself with an ensemble that is comfortable with transcribing/arranging, then you have all sorts of options as well. There are plenty of "string orchestra" pieces out there and even more arrangements intended for school orchestras (of varying difficulty) that work well with one player per part if arranging isn't really your thing or you are looking to build a library pretty quickly if you're thinking of playing weddings/background music gigs. If you and/or someone else in the ensemble wants to arrange, you can do just about anything. While transposition can be a concern, there are plenty of wind quintets out there that would work quite well as string quintets too.

If solo music or a recital is your goal, do you have any particular repertoire in mind? Are you doing it for your own development, or is a public performance in the works? If you are looking for something to do on your own, the Bach cello suites are a great idea, and you can do them in their original keys, up an octave at cello pitch, or in any other key (there are transposed bass editions for that specific purpose) and there are other "solo bass" or "unaccompanied bass" options that do not require a pianist or other musicians. If you have a local sheet music store that might be a category, if not the two mentioned make good search terms when looking for music. Plenty of the solo parts that traditionally have accompaniment can be quite rewarding on their own, and you always have the option of adding a piano/other musicians down the road. If you don't plan on doing a lot of this or you can't leave your bass in solo tuning for a while, you can often find editions that have "orchestral tuning" piano parts to make everyone's life easier.

As far as other clefs go, tenor clef can be quite useful. Many of the solo options can be purchased with editions that use the tenor clef, but it is also becoming quite common to see them written in just treble and bass clefs now. If you want to find tenor clef it's an easy hunt in person, but if you are buying through a sheet music store online they often have "previews" of a page or two so you can see what clef they are using. Many brick and mortar stores also sell sheet music online/over the phone, and you can easily ask what clef(s) the part is written in via email/phone call. If you have access to a music library, a significant amount of gamba/viol music is written in tenor or alto clefs and can be a nice change from what you are used to.

Bass and treble clefs are also great ideas, but it sounds like you've got those under your belt. Alto clef on the other hand, unless you plan on teaching in an environment where you really need to know it such as taking on viola students, conducting, school string programs, etc. you want to read viola parts in a chamber music setting, or you are working from some of the rarer manuscripts that use it, it really isn't all that common/necessary. If you are in those environments then by all means go for it, or if you want to learn it for other reasons that's fine, but it has very limited applications to double bass playing and you can get along just fine without it.

I haven't mentioned Simandl at all for a few reasons. I absolutely believe that a strong technique foundation is essential and that Simandl, Nanny, Bille, and some of the other options are one route to get there, but there are plenty of others. I found that tackling technique issues as they arise in the repertoire I am working on after I had a fairly strong foundation was far more helpful than hammering away on things that I may not encounter for a while, or may have encountered "but we haven't got to that lesson yet in the book". Some of that stuff also isn't particularly musical and can be extremely boring. Personally, I studied with a few jazz players that felt developing your own exercises was a better approach, and it exercises not only your technique but your creative side as well. If that doesn't work for your brain, or you are looking for more structure then a method book can work, but I find they really are only as good as the teacher you are working with who is guiding you through them.
 
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#7
I could not add anything more. Well said, Mike Canada!! My solo career almost stopped dead once I won my position in the orchestra where I spent the next 32 years. I enjoyed playing chamber music whenever I could then but it was not until I semi-retired (my present state) that I could fully enjoy chamber string ensembles and "scratch" groups formed to accompany choirs, etc. Musical odd jobs or "Have bass, will travel". And teach, and examine, and do woodwork, and fix up my old house.............

BassmanKirk, I am wondering if you play in groups, what sort they are, and where you are on the "time line". The best fun, the most satisfaction and the most sociable is to be out there playing with others IMO. I would not spend a lot of time in Simandl II. You hardly need it to establish good thumb position technique, practice your scales and broken chords up to the end of the fingerboard and develop some dexterity and speed with different bow patterns. IMO strengthen the technique you already have up to the first B flat in thumb position using studies and orchestral parts. After that let each group you play in and each piece of music you play drive and develop the techniques you need?

Cheers, and have lots of fun.

DP
 
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#8
Right on Mike!
I owned Book II. Only. Personally, I found Simandl Book I to be incredibly plodding and musically unsatisfying. I always wonder if the purpose of using the book is less about teaching basic technique than simply testing discipline and dedication. I promised myself at the time that if I ever became a teacher I would not subject my students to the drudgery of "OK, next week, learn pages 15-18". During my time with Homer Mensch, plenty of etudes were assigned, but they were all hand-picked, and he never asked me to buy a method book. (Ask anyone who studied with him about the copies of copies of copies, where you could barely read the notes, let alone the markings, but you were in big trouble if you got any fingerings wrong:).)

I say that you should practice and learn the music you plan to play, and especially what you will need to play in an audition. As David said, or so would I interpret, you can't learn to play music in a vacuum. Books and teachers only go so far. You especially need to be playing in groups with musicians with similar interests as your own.
 
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#9
robobass said:
Right on Mike!
During my time with Homer Mensch, plenty of etudes were assigned, but they were all hand-picked, and he never asked me to buy a method book. (Ask anyone who studied with him about the copies of copies of copies, where you could barely read the notes, let alone the markings, but you were in big trouble if you got any fingerings wrong:).)
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I was studying with him when somebody took up a collection to buy him his own mimeograph machine (Google it, kids), thereby sealing our fate.
 
#10
I'm a bit shocked by some of the Simandl-hatin' goin' on here!
The first 70 pages of Book I is linear, building-block, money-in-the-bank, "you better know this sheeot", fundamentals of double bass playing. Sure - It, like any method, can certainly be made more interesting and musical if it's presented and enhanced by a creative teacher. I guess I was lucky - I don't recall it being as blah as some would suggest, and I recall other materials and concepts (esp. bowing fundamentals) introduced and explored along with the contents of the Good Book I.
IMHO.
Thanks.
 
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#12
MikeCanada said:
I haven't mentioned Simandl at all for a few reasons. I absolutely believe that a strong technique foundation is essential and that Simandl, Nanny, Bille, and some of the other options are one route to get there, but there are plenty of others. I found that tackling technique issues as they arise in the repertoire I am working on after I had a fairly strong foundation was far more helpful than hammering away on things that I may not encounter for a while, or may have encountered "but we haven't got to that lesson yet in the book". Some of that stuff also isn't particularly musical and can be extremely boring. Personally, I studied with a few jazz players that felt developing your own exercises was a better approach, and it exercises not only your technique but your creative side as well. If that doesn't work for your brain, or you are looking for more structure then a method book can work, but I find they really are only as good as the teacher you are working with who is guiding you through them.
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I know the emphasis might seem like a bit of overkill, but I wasn't saying that there is no place at all for Simandl and everyone should just burn the books. You have to start somewhere, and that somewhere needs to involve a very strong foundation of technique. If you don't and you jump head first into repertoire that is completely over your head, you are going to do some really inventive (wrong) things to try and make it happen, and all you are doing is creating bad habits that are going to be much harder to break in the future.

With that said, I was under the impression that Kirk has a fairly well established technical foundation. He mentions "I had studied with other bass teacher in my area as well over the years. Now have really shredded through Simandle Book 1, and the etudes on and off the last 20 sum years." Which leads me to believe that he has had cumulatively at least a few years of lessons over the last two decades, and isn't coming at this as someone self taught or with a ton of bad habits. Absolutely everyone has things that they can improve about their technique, and I strongly encourage everyone to spend some time on it. Lessons, if not weekly but once in a while are a good idea for pros because you should never stop learning.

The original post made it sound like the main focus was going to be Simandl, with a few standards and some sight reading sprinkled in here and there for some variety. At this stage in the game, and there is a possibility that I am completely misjudging both Kirk's level of playing and the focus of his lessons, it seems similar to an athlete running drills for decades without ever competing, or playing the game. I was advocating for getting off the bench and getting into the action, instead of training for the big day another decade down the road. Technique is absolutely vital, but it rarely is the end game. If Kirk is planning on pursuing orchestral playing, chamber music, forming a new ensemble, playing a recital, teaching, or any other bass related activities besides really nailing Simandl II, all I'm suggesting is that working towards those goals is just as important, and that might mean that Simandl (but not technique) takes a seat on the bench when you get out there and play a shift.
 
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#13
Great posts Mike and David! pretty much agree to everything being said. Just want to add that I haven't touched any books for almost two years...haha. Have gone through many of the method books in the past and lots of the standard solo repertoire. Great for my technique but in the end it didn't make me more creative and I still really didn't know what to play for myself when it came to bowing. So after five years I stopped my classical lessons two years ago and didn't look back since. Have played in an orchestra but that didn't do it for me. Now I play my own stuff. Inventing my own exercises and creating my own grooves and pieces, trying to copy cello videos on YT and also following lessons from a violin player in Indian music on the double bass (I also play sitar for a long time). Feels like a liberation for me and I enjoy it more than ever.

I am a bit jealous about our other bowed colleagues (violin and cello). They can play in a string quartet which is the most beautiful sort of chamber music for me. So many nice pieces for that and all the great composers have written for that. It is very hard to find a nice small and good chamber ensemble when you play double bass because not much music is there.
 
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#14
neilG said:
I was studying with him when somebody took up a collection to buy him his own mimeograph machine (Google it, kids), thereby sealing our fate.
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I want to find that guy and make him pay for my next pair of eyeglasses:)

Neil, Since most of us likely still have our "Homer Xeroxes", we should all get together and score them out properly in Finale, and publish the collection under a trust, donating the money to scholarships, instruments, and what not. If enough of us get involved and we split up the work, then each of us would probably be on the hook for only five pages or so, and I bet there already exists some kind of trust.
 
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#15
I am a big proponent of Simandl book 1, you won't find many who have gone through it seriously detracting from it, only those trying to "find a way around it".
I have worked on book 2, but I find Petracchi and Bach at pitch to be more helpful. I also find early book 1 etudes done 8va in TP to do more. I like to treat the upper register as equal and not different or less that the low end.
 
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#18
I have actually found working on the Sanky version Simandle Book 2, as well as working out of the Oscar Zimmerman Bass Solo Book for working on my musicality on the bass, for working on those two books again since college is starting to pay off. For me the reason I work out of the Simandle Books is the idea of working on my intonation, and using my other bass books to cover other things that those books do not covers. Also my background in playing Classical Guitar as well as Classical Piano is helping as much also. I am more than a Classical bassist, I play everything from classical, to bluegrass/folk-old time country music, to rockabilly, to jazz music, on the bass. My training though is in Classical Bass, and as well as jazz bass, the two go hand to hand in being a good string bassist. By the way, I have coming an audition to get my Second Masters in Music Performance in String Bass from a Music School around where I live. I have been practice for just about 1 1/2 to 2 hours a days to get my classical chops back up there where they were when I was in my undergraduate program in Music and History.
 
#20
neilG said:
IMO, the Petracchi "Higher Technique" book wasn't worth the money. I can explain all that to a student on one page of music and then have them apply it to anything they work on. Notes is notes. Find some notes you like, apply technique, repeat.
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That's what I've always thought. Why play etudes that some bass teacher wrote when you could be practicing stuff written by great composers? I find it way more satisfying at least, and as long as you don't pidgeonhole yourself on Bach Suites or something, it should be more useful. I've never seen a Simandl etude on an audition list. When I have nothing special coming up which needs to be learned and just want to sit down and do some blue skies practicing, I usually start with this stuff below. Since I know the symphony well and can pretty much hear the rest of the score in my head, I find the practice session not only quite enjoyable, but feel like I am participating in something great, and have a lot more to get right than just the notes. And no. I don't necessarily use Oscar's fingerings:)

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