Singer tuning songs down too low.. muddy.. but he’s a good friend.. ugh

DanBass

DanBass

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Jan 27, 2003
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Gainesville, FL
#1
I’ve seen this posted in the past, but I wanted to post again as this is the same situation but has some wrinkles to the story.

So one of my closest friends, a guitarist has ventured out as a solo artist, singing and playing acoustic. He’s a stellar guitarist (we’ve played in bands together for years with him playing lead guitar) and has always wanted to do his own thing playing and singing covers. Mostly in the country genre, current (yuck) and classic era tunes.

He’s been out and about in the area and admittedly I’m proud of him. He works HARD. Now the singing part is still a work in progress. He sings in the lower register and is still working on singing and playing.

So to the crux of my story. More increasingly, he’s putting together full band shows and has been asking me to play. I’ve obviously accepted, as I’m happy to support him.

This issue I’m running into is he drops every song a full step. It makes a lot of the songs super muddy.. and in addition he’ll group two similar songs together and they tend to drone on. And on.. and…

Because he sings lower, it adds to the muddiness and it causes him to battle the band a bit from a volume standpoint. He’s not older, he’s only 32.. his register is just lower. And that’s OK!

I want to offer constructive criticism and feedback, but I don’t want to discourage him. There are a TON of songs he can look into that favor his voice (especially in that genre) and don’t have to be dropped so low that he sounds like Muddy Von Muddleson.

When he’s playing solo it’s ok as it’s just him.. but for full band shows I’d like to suggest he tailor the set lists to his strengths. To put on the best possible show. I really want him to succeed. There are just some songs that he shouldn’t be singing. They just don’t sound right tuned down.

But it’s hard to be the harbinger of such info..

He told me the one club owner told him his guitar work is great, but his vocals are not that strong. And it ceased opportunities at that venue (a good one too).. But he could work on that by working on his song choices. I just want to diplomatically tell him that without being “that guy”.

I want him to do AWESOME and he’s a bud.

Sigh. Thanks for hanging with me this long and reading the novel. lol
 
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#5
That's a tough one. I can't offer much advice. But I've had exp with this in the past. My band I'm in now, we were the same band 8 years ago but with a different vocalist. I brought him in because we needed a vocalist and he was a friend and he really wanted to try and do it since it was a long time ambition/dream of his. He worked out well enough at that time and we all saw he had raw talent for it. He was rusty and finding himself the first year but he really did come around to being a good vocalist and frontman. ff>> another year into it and I noticed he'd always throw his voice out screaming or overextending his voice after the first song or two in the live set (hard rock originals) and even at practice sometimes. He'd sound pretty bad some nights the rest of the set. He was good. But I still think he needed to learn how to use his voice properly. He was more worried about the performance and showing the crowd an animated frontman. Right or wrong, I do understand that. But I never wanted it to ruin the bands performance/show. And I felt it really did some nights. It went on like that for about 3 more years. His ego got a little more inflated over time and it was very hard to give him constructive criticism about it or anything else for that matter. I tried to be mindful and pretty nice about it when/if I did which was not often. Because he really could sing. I thought he'd be amazing if he just learned how to use the voice he did have.

Well, on our last EP, when we were recording it in the studio, he started getting attitudes with the whole band. Not really sure why. He may have been going through something he wasn't sharing. But we all gave each other criticism about everything really haha because we were recording and wanted it to come out great. We all seemed to have taken it well enough and it did make us better IMO. That last EP we did was our best one in my mind. But it seemed like after that studio exp and the following year or so after, he wasn't interacting with us the way he used to and just acted annoyed all the time. Came to practice, on his phone the whole time, barely spoke to us. Always asked him if he was cool/ok. Always said he was fine. Then one day he sent us this long @$$ email and quit. Not really stating any reasons other than he thought it was time for him to move on.

So yeah, it sounds like you do need to approach this with care. Me personally, I always felt being direct and to the point was the way to go. Especially in band situations. But some don't take that that great. It can really fracture things that can't be mended. After our friend left the band, none of us have spoken to him to this day. Not a word. It's very possible I did or said something to him that he felt was unnecessary. I really don't know because he didn't say anything to that effect in the last email of all the things he did say. I guess just be prepared for anything no matter how you approach him about it.

Hope it works out though!
 
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#6
Friends still have to cut it.
2 choices

1) Don't go there and play with friends
2) Be a friend, tell him its not working...
and thats why 1) is preferable.
 
#7
I second that in general lowering the key a step shouldn't make a huge difference in the mud factor...however success is somewhat dependent on the musician's ability to adjust their parts in a suitable manner. I.E. it doesn't always work to simply drop a chord shape down a step. Sometime it's necessary to invert the chord or perhaps replace a closed voicing with and open voicing. Or perhaps it could help to simply the chord and/or avoid playing certain problematic notes.

A more precise description of the problem may be helpful. Is the problem his voice or the instruments. If it's his voice, does it happen when he sings acoustically or only when he's going through the PA? I can't help if his voice is the problem. If the problem only occurs with the PA, then applying HPFs and using frequency slotting should help.

If the problem is with the instruments, then it could be due to the way chords are being voiced or it could be due to the tone of each instrument. The players need to work out their parts so they can stay out of each other's way. Also HPF and frequency slotting applies hear as well. If the guitar amp is cranking out massive lows, it tends to muddy things up. Many guitar players think it sounds warm...but often it's mud city.

If lowering a song by a step cause the bass to jump up an octave...the change for you is a up minor 7th rather than a step down. The way guitar or keys voices chords is a factor, that can be changed. Also perhaps you could use drop tuning or an extended range instrument so you are going down instead of up.
 
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#8
Moving things around I think can be good, not to get married to a tuning like you pick a song that's it's key that's it.
Does he choose his keys with a producer?
One of the most important things is to select the correct tonality for a singer, not based on what demo he did at home, or how he's comfortable practicing at home alone (some singers get obsessed with the keys they sing at home alone)... or with different instrumentation...
He should understand that it needs to be tailored for the band, but also build the instrumentation around that sweet spot not to overpower his voice if it's barritone etc...

But choosing vocal keys is an art, and the best producers know how to do this well...

There's a reason most rock vocalists are tenors and the lower they go the more folk/storytelling I guess, normally... and if it's rock with a barritone there's ussually something very unique about the instrumentation (leaving alot of space for the vocal one way or another)
 
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#9
DanBass said:
I’ve seen this posted in the past, but I wanted to post again as this is the same situation but has some wrinkles to the story.

So one of my closest friends, a guitarist has ventured out as a solo artist, singing and playing acoustic. He’s a stellar guitarist (we’ve played in bands together for years with him playing lead guitar) and has always wanted to do his own thing playing and singing covers. Mostly in the country genre, current (yuck) and classic era tunes.

He’s been out and about in the area and admittedly I’m proud of him. He works HARD. Now the singing part is still a work in progress. He sings in the lower register and is still working on singing and playing.

So to the crux of my story. More increasingly, he’s putting together full band shows and has been asking me to play. I’ve obviously accepted, as I’m happy to support him.

This issue I’m running into is he drops every song a full step. It makes a lot of the songs super muddy.. and in addition he’ll group two similar songs together and they tend to drone on. And on.. and…

Because he sings lower, it adds to the muddiness and it causes him to battle the band a bit from a volume standpoint. He’s not older, he’s only 32.. his register is just lower. And that’s OK!

I want to offer constructive criticism and feedback, but I don’t want to discourage him. There are a TON of songs he can look into that favor his voice (especially in that genre) and don’t have to be dropped so low that he sounds like Muddy Von Muddleson.

When he’s playing solo it’s ok as it’s just him.. but for full band shows I’d like to suggest he tailor the set lists to his strengths. To put on the best possible show. I really want him to succeed. There are just some songs that he shouldn’t be singing. They just don’t sound right tuned down.

But it’s hard to be the harbinger of such info..

He told me the one club owner told him his guitar work is great, but his vocals are not that strong. And it ceased opportunities at that venue (a good one too).. But he could work on that by working on his song choices. I just want to diplomatically tell him that without being “that guy”.

I want him to do AWESOME and he’s a bud.

Sigh. Thanks for hanging with me this long and reading the novel. lol
Click to expand...
This is the example of why I cannot stand, absolutely hate the two man acoustic jam. It awful with the same songs over and over and, hey let’s go three semitones lower because I’m a crap singer. Ugh.
 
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#10
Dropping a step on some songs shouldn't be a problem. I started singing a lot more the past 2 years and 3 songs I used to drop a step I sing in the original key now and I just turned 70 today. I worked with a lazy sounding baritone that was a good guitarist and he would drop songs a fifth and tune down a half step. I sing and play with a drum machine and record myself on my phone to get an Idea of how I sound. Sometimes I setup my mic and run my voice thru a reverb/doubler pedal to hear how I sound on a mic. Pick the songs that work and practice and record practices and performances.
 
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#11
I guess for my mind and being a band leader, I don't understand why "best friends" can't just be upfront and honest with each other!? He may be your best friend but, are you his? Tell him and be honest about it. If has fit about it he has set himself above all of you. How does the rest of the band feel? That would be a question well answered as well. Don't gang up on him. Do it in person! This is personal.
 
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#12
The news from the venue owner is an invitation to seek vocal coaching, and the possible discovery of extending his range. And +1 on posts suggesting HPF and adjusting chord voicings. Adding an upper register instrument may help, like pedal steel if there isn't one already.
 
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#13
I can tell from experience that some musicians can get really sensitive to any kind of criticism. I used to be in a band and we had a show which was not our best. As we were discussing the show afterwards, I pointed out that I played a few wrong notes, singer forgot some of the lyrics, and so on, and the band split.

Another band got offended when I told them we should record another take because we can do better.

That being said, I'd still tell him that he would sound much better if he sang in a higher register live, because of the reasons you mentioned.
 
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#14
Has there been a change to thicker strings to accommodate the lower pitch or just simply using standard tuning strings dropped a step?

The singer could get everyone down another semitone and start doing Sabbath songs.
 
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#15
Country shouldn't get muddy with a relatively small change of key. On the recordings there's often tons of layers and as a live band you won't have as many, so you should end up with more space.

So, yeah, chord voicings, mix, maybe taking things up a 7th as already mentioned. And you also mention that similar songs drone on. Is the singer hitting the high notes of the vocal melodies correctly? With a big chunk of the newer country, the singers are really technically good and even ones that come from a rap background hit some surprisingly high notes. Like, I want to do Clever's "Cowboy Killers" which is a very silly song and simple to play but the only way it's gonna happen is if the female singer wants to sing it.
 
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#16
Sounds like a few different issues being conflated into one.

1- As others have said, transposing a step down isn't what makes things muddy. Mud is a tonal thing, not a note thing. If playing a step down made things muddy, any song already in that key would also be muddy. But songs have been written in all the keys and we don't have a mythical "muddy key." So it's not the transposition causing the mud.

In any key, even the original key, mud comes from the tonal choices of the instruments and their mix together. What's the instrumentation when he's playing full-band? Everyone in the band should be spread out along the spectrum, playing in different octaves. If he's voicing his chords in the lowest register of his guitar, and the other guitarist is too, and the keys are playing tight-voiced chords closer to the low notes, with a lot of left hand work, and the bass is in its first two octaves, and he's a bass or baritone singer, that's the recipe for mud.

In any key, if everyone in the band is boosting the lows and low-mids, that's a recipe for mud.

The band needs complementary-but-contrasting tones if they're playing in the same range, and they need to spread the instrument voicings across the spectrum better. Bass stays in the first two octaves, one guitar playing low-register voicings, the other guitar playing upper register voicings, keys spread out without playing too dense left-hand notes and avoiding the bass notes. And then everyone's EQ needs to make a little space for everyone else.

---

2- His range and his singing skills are two different things. If he needs to sing a step lower because that's his range, not a problem. If he can't sing well and can't hit a note, transposing a step down ain't gonna help.

If he wants to sing but he's not a good singer, he'll need to be a better singer. Seems pretty straightforward. If his guitar chops weren't up to snuff, he'd probably take a few lessons and practice. Same goes for vocals. He probably needs to take some vocal lessons/coaching and practice singing more.

The club owner already broke the bad news about dude's singing to him. So it's not like you're going to be the one breaking the bad news to him. He's already heard it from someone else. And hopefully he's a good enough musician to hear how off his own vocals are.

If you pretend like his vocals are great, and there's nothing wrong, and you have no idea why he's losing gigs, or why the audience doesn't respond well, you're not doing your friend any favors.

Find a way to recommend getting singing lessons without being accusatory. Or find a way to broach the subject and lead the conversation in a way that your friend thinks they came to that decision themself.

---

3- Song selection and set-order is important. If he's picking too many songs back-to-back that lose not just the audience, but the band, you're right, it's a problem.

He can learn to DJ. DJing is learning how to read a room and adjusting set lists on the fly. But he's already hopefully taking vocal lessons. So i'd suggest taking a video of the show, and face it so you can see the audience, not the band. You can see where the band starts losing the audience and where things get boring.
 
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#18
If a singer can't hear how off key they are ..big problem.
I'm doing a fun project and a producer absolutely rinsed the vocals..who actually has a good tone to her voice otherwise... and suggested autotune.
I'm not in favour of that if it goes live. They can either do it or they can't.
 
#19
Oddly said:
Can you record these shows or rehearsals and sit him down to listen and discuss?
That just might open his ears to the problem.
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This is a good idea. I don't want to be overly critical, I want him to put the best show on he can. This way, he can hear and maybe some of the "issues" will be more apparent. Or I can steer him to them nicely.. :)
 
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