I have a Source Audio Manta pedal. I would like to access midi control of presets without having to pay 100+ dollars for additional proprietary SA hardware (I know, I'm such a brat). Is there any way to use the trrs port on the Manta for midi control directly? Most pedals deliver midi over 1/4" trs these days, is it simply a matter of using the correct ring from the 1/8" trrs output to convert it to midi over trs? Thanks!
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Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
- Apr 9, 2012
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Unfortunately no.
First, the communication is not just standard MIDI but is proprietary IIRC (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Second, I'm not sure what you mean by controlling these presets, but the pedal itself only stores two presets. Additional presets are stored in the external hardware.
First, the communication is not just standard MIDI but is proprietary IIRC (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
Second, I'm not sure what you mean by controlling these presets, but the pedal itself only stores two presets. Additional presets are stored in the external hardware.
I have a midi controller. I'm saying that I'd like to be able to use my midi controller with the Manta without paying more for additional hardware than I paid for the Manta itself.
It is just a trrs connection, so all we're talking about is voltage transfer, same as trs over midi. I'm just wondering whether anyone has managed to convert the trrs voltages to midi over trs compliant voltages. I realize it is not plug and play.
Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
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I guess I'm confused by your question then.
The way I understand it is that you absolutely need the SA Hub (Soundblox, then rebranded as Neuro, but it's the same thing). The communication is proprietary. It's not as simple as converting voltages.
You need the Hub + something, anything, that will send at least PC MIDI messages (it sounds like you have the latter). I agree it's a lot of extra gear in order to fully unlock just one pedal.
TRS/TRRS cables follow ohm's law irrespective of what "information" they are carrying. TRS/TRRS vs. 5-pin DIN are differences in connectors. From another forum: Under nominal conditions a current of 20mA will flow through the MIDI circuit, when data is transmitted, a '1' is represented as a change of state from current being present to no current flowing (effectively, a swing to zero volts).
So the question is, what is SA's midi implementation, and does it comport with the midi standard (e.g., after grounding one of the rings)? Just wondering whether anyone has found this out through experience? It seems like it would be a foolish waste of time and energy for SA to create a whole new midi standard...
(For an analogy, SA would also say the neuro hub is necessary for using an expression pedal with the Manta. However, if you make a 1/8" trrs to 1/4" trs cable and add some resistors, you can use any expression pedal with the Manta without the neuro hub.)
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Not a brat at all. I found that "closed system" so stupid I got rid of my Manta.
Funny how today I'm not MIDI-ing anything anyway.
I'm putting together a midi board because I have a rp particle 2 and tensor, and I want presets (and I kinda want to learn how to use a setup with midi)... I'd like to have the Manta as my filter on that board, but I'd also like to be able to access more than 2 presets...
Regardless of the proprietary trrs design (perhaps someone from SA can explain it better @Gibs210, @rsmith601), the Manta only has 2 onboard presets so you would have to get a Hub if you want more.
It is inconvenient when using with only one pedal and fortunately SA is improving preset and midi options on newer releases.
You may be right, but rp pedals have a limited (eg '4') number of presets 'on board' but one can access 128 via midi without additional hardware beyond a midi controller. So I'm not convinced a priori that the Manta is limited in this regard.
Adamixoye
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I'm not saying that electricity somehow operates differently. I'm saying, as I understand it, the signal put out by the Hub is not just standard MIDI. Not the voltage but the actual data format in bits and bytes. That's not fixed by a resistor or adapter. I could be wrong about that, but SA has made statements to that effect.
The expression pedal is a different question, there have always been ways to hook up the SB2 expression ports without the Hub. The Dual Expression pedal has the TRRS port. SA may recommend the Hub but they've provided info on how to do the conversion to get regular TRS expressions to the TRRS port. I think they've been pretty transparent about that. The Hub, as I understand it, is a different beast for the rest of the MIDI control and preset stuff.
Also, as I said earlier, those "extra presets" are stored externally to the pedal (in the Hub with "scenes"). So let's say hypothetical that your plan works, that you can use another MIDI controller without the Hub via some converting adapters. Where are these additional presets coming from? Would you just be sending a (very long) series of CC commands to the SB2 pedal in order to create an ad hoc preset?
TL;DR as I understand it, the Hub is more than just a voltage converter, there are data format issues as well. The 1s and 0s are different. If I'm wrong then I've grossly misunderstood some direct statements SA has made. Either way, you need the Hub for additional preset storage unless you've got some pretty crazy system in place and willing to do a lot of legwork.
But if you don't believe me then I'd probably recommend contacting SA directly or at least posting in the fairly extensive threads devoted to SA.
The expression pedal is a different question, there have always been ways to hook up the SB2 expression ports without the Hub. The Dual Expression pedal has the TRRS port. SA may recommend the Hub but they've provided info on how to do the conversion to get regular TRS expressions to the TRRS port. I think they've been pretty transparent about that. The Hub, as I understand it, is a different beast for the rest of the MIDI control and preset stuff.
Also, as I said earlier, those "extra presets" are stored externally to the pedal (in the Hub with "scenes"). So let's say hypothetical that your plan works, that you can use another MIDI controller without the Hub via some converting adapters. Where are these additional presets coming from? Would you just be sending a (very long) series of CC commands to the SB2 pedal in order to create an ad hoc preset?
TL;DR as I understand it, the Hub is more than just a voltage converter, there are data format issues as well. The 1s and 0s are different. If I'm wrong then I've grossly misunderstood some direct statements SA has made. Either way, you need the Hub for additional preset storage unless you've got some pretty crazy system in place and willing to do a lot of legwork.
But if you don't believe me then I'd probably recommend contacting SA directly or at least posting in the fairly extensive threads devoted to SA.
Adamixoye
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Ok, I'm not though. So, there's that.
I'm not saying it's not possible or even probable. Just not certain either way.
Adamixoye
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They've said it unequivocally. That I can assure you. Only two presets are stored on the pedals. Do you just need to hear it from them, or would you be unconvinced even then?
The SB2 pedals had just two presets. The older One Series pedals have six. The newest One Series pedals (e.g., the C4 and Spectrum) do have the storage for 128 presets, that was a major change that they discussed in threads here and on TGP.
Additional "presets" for the older pedals are obtained by sending data from an external source that changes the parameters. But all that data is stored externally.
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Following.
By the weekend I am either going to buy the Neuro Hub or a second DMC Micro to manage my SA devices.
By the weekend I am either going to buy the Neuro Hub or a second DMC Micro to manage my SA devices.
Adamixoye
A PT Pro is cool for worship, right?
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I'd have to search. Why don't you just ask your questions here:
Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3
It states directly in the manual that the Mantra itself has 2 user presets.
The neuro hub allows up to 128 scenes.. which can include other SA pedals.
Only the newer one series pedals have storage for 128 prests without the hub.. but requrie a USB host device, midi functionality doesn't work through the TRRS ports. TRRS is for the hub, or for expression devices.
I have an Aftershock distortion, by itself it only has 6 presets. With the hub I get more options. Which i have the hub because I have more than one SA pedal.
Sell the mantra and get a C4 if you want just a pedal that does its job + usb controller imo. It has the filters, plus distortion, plus synth noises as well, and you can save 128 presets.
The spectrum is just filters + distortion + monophonic pitch effects, but I'd just pay the extra $40 and get the c4 personally.. as it does that job and then some.
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I confirm that. Two presets.
You may go for a Soundblox Pro BEF and have 6 presets (because in its case you can switch between two memory banks of 3 presets each) but it's a much larger footprint and sounds different (it doesn't feature the "Drive" control) and honestly it sounded pretty "thin" and weak to me.
I may suggest to go for a SA Spectrum but I haven't tried it myself. That or the C4. Don't know how both cover the Manta's soundscape though.
You may go for a Soundblox Pro BEF and have 6 presets (because in its case you can switch between two memory banks of 3 presets each) but it's a much larger footprint and sounds different (it doesn't feature the "Drive" control) and honestly it sounded pretty "thin" and weak to me.
I may suggest to go for a SA Spectrum but I haven't tried it myself. That or the C4. Don't know how both cover the Manta's soundscape though.
rsmith601
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That little TRRS port on the SB2 series (and on the newer 1 series) is a very complex port. Unlike MIDI, which is slow and only in 1 direction, this port can do the following:
- Analog Expression
- First Generation Dual Axis Analog Hot Hand control
- Digital 2 generation Axis Hot Hand control
- High speed bi-directional communication with the Hub.
If you want to connect Manta to MIDI, you do need the Hub. They sell for about $60 used, and they are very, very powerful and helpful.