Double Bass Spiro EA + Permanent DG? (Edgar Mayer style at standard tuning)

R

RamesesNiblick3

Jul 22, 2008
28
1
4,601
Perth, Australia
#1
I'm well past due for some new strings, and as my three biggest influences for the stuff I'm currently playing (Ethan Jodziewicz, Paul Kowert, and Edgar Meyer) all appear use the same set-up I thought I'd give that a try. The problem is all those guys use solo tuning for the top three strings and I don't.

Can anyone comment on this combo using orchestral tuned strings? My background is jazz so I'm predominantly a pizz player, but I'm bringing more and more bowing in as I get better at it. My main concern is that while the solo Permanents clearly give a good pizz sound, will the orchestral variant?
 
#6
Haven't tried Permanents, but the players you mention inspired me to try solo tuning (flex deluxe on my bass). It's obviously a layer of transposition but that part's easy to get around (someone says D and I think "C"). Personally I'd recommend it if you're doing arco improv. I tried the FD solos with an orch Spiro Mittel E but it was way too sonically different for me, so I just have the full solo tuning at the moment. I'd like to get a FD orch E or Spiro Weich E on there one of these days, but until then I don't really miss the two low notes I lost..
 
  • Like
Reactions: RamesesNiblick3
#7
Regarding brightness: Permanents seem to sound dark for pizz, but with the bow, they are actually pretty bright. Almost as bright as Spirocore, but more pleasing and easier to articulate.
Flexocore Deluxe seemed more balanced to me, so maybe brighter pizz but also slightly darker (less harsh?) arco, compared to Permanents.

If you want great pizz, but also good, projecting, bright arco I'd go with either Spirocores, if your bass needs some edge, or Perpetuals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RamesesNiblick3
#8
Does anyone have experience using Permanent DG and Spirocore Weich EA in orchestra tuning? I play mostly arco but I'm branching out to play more jazz/non-classical. I already like the arco and pizz sound from the Permanents on top so I'm not as worried about those but I'm new to Spirocores. I've heard some orchestra players (ie. Joseph Conyers) use Spiro Weich and he makes them sound pretty good. I'm curious how do the Weich EA respond under the bow?

For my preferences, I don't mind bowing a slightly brighter string and I'm not trying to win any auditions so I'm not searching the BEST arco string, just one good enough and that will age well
 
#9
Personally if by chance you have a full set of Spiros on your bass I’d stick to them. Probably the Weichs as they’re a little more forgiving with the bow. But overall they’re pretty much the perfect fit for what you do, and it’s more than possible to bow them in all of the gauges available. The first month or two may be a bit harsh under the bow, but once they’re broken in you’re good to go for at least 2 years. Maybe even a decade. You’ll also won’t have to worry about sacrificing the quality of your pizz tone by having darker strings on the D and G. Also you’re arco technique will be a lot better by playing on Spiros.
And as a disclosure I use Spiro Weichs, and will likely be trying a set of Mittels soon. I’ve used them in jazz, free improvisation many different folk musics, classical, new music, metal, etc and they excel in every setting I’m in. While I would like to play more orchestral rep, I’m ultimately like you and am not seeking out tons of orchestral auditions. Get our keep with Spiros and just focus on the music!
Ultimately when it comes down to it I would choose a set or combo of strings that will best serve most of your money making gigs.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Brandon Dong
#11
Sorry to chime in a year later here but came across this thread while researching the experiences of others using solo tuning strings at orchestral tuning.

I’ve currently got an extended C Permanent on my shorter scale (100cm/39.4”) 3/4 Solo, and like it pretty well. The Spiro Weich I have on the G however feels a bit to tight at 25 kp and scratchiest than I’d like with the bow. So after seeing several comments here about Perm solo on top and spiro on bottom I’m wondering what keeps people from liking the Permanents on bottom instead of Spiros?

since I’m doing a lot more now work lately I’m looking at either Passione or Kaplan Solo E/A (D/G) and adding a permanent solo B (A) for tension matching...and holding on to the current E(Ext C) which feels quite alright.
Appreciate your thoughts if you care to share.
PS Oliv D and G on top are also a possibility.
 
#13
One would think that but sadly it’s not the case. Something about the downward angle behind the bridge on the shorter instrument being so much steeper than a standard length body creates a higher tension. It’s related to the same idea as why some 42-ish and longer players choose to install larger saddles (tension blocks as some call them) thus reducing that back angle, to reduce tension as well.

The E solo on my D currently feels exactly where I want the tension so I’ve ordered new solo strings that should arrive today. I’ll try to post some observations here after I’ve played them in.

stefaniw80401 said:
Daniel, you mention using down-tuned solo strings. Are you looking for a low-tension setup? My two basses are 42" and 42-3/8", and I struggle finding strings that are not too tight. But for you, at 39.4", I would imagine most 3/4 bass strings would feel much looser than they would on my basses -- no?
Click to expand...
 
#14
Daniel Immel said:
... the downward angle behind the bridge on the shorter instrument being so much steeper than a standard length body creates a higher tension...
Click to expand...

The angle of the strings over the bridge does not affect tension, but it does affect the pressure which the bridge exerts on the top plate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Daniel Immel
#15
AGCurry said:
The angle of the strings over the bridge does not affect tension, but it does affect the pressure which the bridge exerts on the top plate.
Click to expand...
While I know that to be true, because physics, I wonder why people often seem to perceive this effect on bass and many other string instruments throughout time. I also have experienced string tensions feeling quite different on different instruments, where I know they really shouldn't - maybe something else isn't working with the setup that I can't figure out and my brain can't rationalize it in any way other than the tension is uneven, but I don't know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Daniel Immel
#16
I appreciate this perspective in the name Science...but perhaps you have a better explanation. Personally speaking I have installed the saddle on a Juzek w 44” scale it made the instrument easier to play and with a lower perceived tension. So, in the real world where the proof is in the pudding I will say that the block does at least improve the feel of the instrument when the tension was previously too high.
AGCurry said:
The angle of the strings over the bridge does not affect tension, but it does affect the pressure which the bridge exerts on the top plate.
Click to expand...
 
#19
Daniel Immel said:
I appreciate this perspective in the name Science...but perhaps you have a better explanation. Personally speaking I have installed the saddle on a Juzek w 44” scale it made the instrument easier to play and with a lower perceived tension. So, in the real world where the proof is in the pudding I will say that the block does at least improve the feel of the instrument when the tension was previously too high.
Click to expand...
There are many things that influence the perceived tension or resistance. The sounpost being one.
Installing a soundpost that fits your needs can save you a lot of money otherwise spent on strings and time otherwise spent on adjusting your bridge.
 
#20
Thanks for this article Nogbert. A solid read. Based on this makers statements and measurements it seems perhaps I should be using the term "down pressure" or "down force" to describe the "perceived tension" that I'm referring to.

nogbert said:
Filip Kuijken, Violin Maker

this is important to understand. i feel this is an oft overlooked parameter that people try to remedy by getting "low tension" strings
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back