Straight to PA/DAW end of chain DI Cab Sim....maybe?

[Vlad5]

Note: I'm a talker, so skip to the question in bold below if you're pressed for time or patience.

Hi all.... I'M BACK!

Been, um, 5 years since my last post... still have all my gear from since then, been noodling but not obsessing about effects; now picking up where I left off.

And the GAS is back... IT BEGINS!!!

I updated my gear setup in my profile, so any who wish to answer here please browse my profile to see the many end of signal chain effects I've owned (many). Of course, I'll try to be specific with what my current needs are, as I don't expect everyone (or anyone) to research my background experience, specifically with DI's and pre-amps.

Anyway, over the last few years DCM, Darkglass and others have come out with new products that may fit my needs. I'm hoping you all can help with my decision. Of course I may just purchase all the effects on my list and return what I don't jive with... ugh.

Disclaimer: I have spent the last few days pouring over threads here about straight to PA (live) and practice (home) setups, but would like some specific help and feedback with my (apparent) needs. Which are:

I am traveling about with my lady friend, for months on end, and we cannot bring either our full pedal boards (boo) or amp/cab setups with us (also boo) cus we are renting small places where we go and really need to travel light. Best we can do for practice/play/record (besides our guitars) is a laptop, AD interface, 1x10 Alto PA, compact studio monitors, and (for me) a very small pedal board. She has an FM-3, so is all set for plug and play straight to PA. In fact, thats her amp, so, whatever. I do not want an FM-3; too much of what I don't need for over a grand$.

I have my B3K > Compact Fayesing > Submarine Designer (oh yes), and expression pedal for the phaser. I also have a JDI. This is my bare-bone-tone, and I love it (into my Mesa M9/2x10). Wish I could add my Lomenzo Hyperdrive to this, as mixed with the B3K it. is. Gnarly... but alas the pedal is huge and I may need to start another thread asking about much smaller alternatives, but I digress... my tone is far from clean and I want it to sound good and full through the PA.

What recommendations (based on personal experience, please) do you all have for a pedal to end my signal chain so that my rather gravely bass signal sounds good through our PA, A/D converter, and/or headphones.

Considerations include:
HPF/LPF - Broughton - prob gonna get the always-on HPF anyway since I've been meaning to for years.
Base Station - DSM/Humboldt - thing is, I already have an Omnicab Sim and it has never truly satisfied.
Element - Darkglass - digital DSP (hmm....a mini FM-3 for me?) but cab IR's! This seems to be the most promising since it would negate the need for an LPF (fizzy control).
Bass Box - Atomic - knobs! I'm into it. Seems to be loved around here.

Thoughts? Alternatives? I've already tried Sans Amps and similar (Tonehammer, etc.) and have never been happy with the results straight to a PA, mixer, phones, etc...

Ugh... writing all this I feel I may have answered my own question. Still, alternatives/suggestions?

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

Both the Empress Para EQ Mk II Deluxe and the Source Audio EQ2 can do a lot of tone shaping, including low and high pass filtering.

 

[Vlad5]

Thanks Smurf.
While both are good pedals, no question, I'm not looking for more all purpose eq'ing. Submarine shapes my tone just right.

Really I need an 'amp/cab-in-the-box' kinda thing with DI out (maybe; can still use the JDI).
While simply LPF'ing may control the sizzle into the PA, I feel replicating the response I get from my M9/2x10 setup is most important.
Without going all FM3/Quad Cortex about it.

Started looking at Origin Effects stuff, but never been a 'classic amp' fan. Hence, the Mesa hybrid at home.

 

[el murdoque]

What recommendations (based on personal experience, please) do you all have for a pedal to end my signal chain so that my rather gravely bass signal sounds good through our PA, A/D converter, and/or headphones.

Considerations include:
HPF/LPF - Broughton - prob gonna get the always-on HPF anyway since I've been meaning to for years.
Base Station - DSM/Humboldt - thing is, I already have an Omnicab Sim and it has never truly satisfied.
Element - Darkglass - digital DSP (hmm....a mini FM-3 for me?) but cab IR's! This seems to be the most promising since it would negate the need for an LPF (fizzy control).
Bass Box - Atomic - knobs! I'm into it. Seems to be loved around here.

What you are looking for is the Broughton RFE.

I tried many cabinet simulations and was never satisfied. It felt like someone was forcing an unwieldy sound shaping device on me that I had to work around. I tried analog and IR, with the same result. Drive sounds are much better through a (tweeterless) bass cab than they are through a PA cab. Why? Most likely for the same reason guitars sound better through guitar speakers than through PA speakers.
The bass cabinet acts as two things: A bandpass filter and a sound coloration device. While the latter is subjective and optional, the former is somewhat mandatory.
PA speakers are designed to be full range and uncolored. Bass cabinets are designed to do the frequency range for bass guitar and make that sound 'good', where the interpretation of the term 'good' is up to the engineers preferences.
However, bringing down the top end with a LPF is a great way to tame the nasty sizzle bits of a driven signal.
A HPF is not strictly necessary, but it helps a lot cleaning up a sound a bit (and not many bass cabinets go down to 40/30Hz without rolling off). That's what the HPF/LPF does. I had one and I was happy with it.
It felt like the restrictions were lifted off my shoulders.
No cabinet to work around, but also not the problem of sending a cabinet-less overdriven signal to PA and making them deal with it. This was all I could hope for - I thought until I tried the RFE.
Instead of boring low and high pass filters, the RFE has resonant filters, plus parametric mids.
For my personal application this is gold. I can have a slight mid hump. Or scoop. I can set the cutoff frequency of the HPF a bit higher and then boost it. It sounds fatter, yet clears up nicely.
I stopped looking at anything else. I'm actually getting another RFE should I find one. As an alternative.

 

[Jon Burnet]

You didn't mention it, but don't count out the NUX Melvin Lee Davis Pre amp. 3 selectable pre amp emulations and switchable ir's on the DI output and a clean thru. I didn't want to like it, but picked one up to solve a similar issue in my own rig and have to say something A LOT better will have to come into my field of vision before i look to replace it.
Melvin Lee Davis Bass Preamp + DI (NBP-5) - NUX

 

[Vlad5]

Thanks el murdoque.
That is all good advice. I'm a Broughton fan (who isnt?) and am about to get their always on HPF.
The RFE looks good. Controlling the volume at the filter cutoff is one of the features I desire in a pass filter, but rarely see.
I will keep an out out for a used one too, since new ones sell out in minutes it seems, and Broughton builds batches of em like once a year.

Jon, thank you too!
I didnt know about NUX (been out of GAS for half a decade).
That MLD preamp looks really nice.
Gonna read through the manual today.

So many choices, which is why I come here for bass gear advice.

I just bought a used Bass Box through the classifieds here, ships tomorrow, reading the manual now.
Even if I dont like it, I'll then have a basis for comparison (besides Zoom boxes and analogue cab sims anyway).

Please, keep the suggestions coming friends.
I am super picky, and am be happy to try everything if I can.

 

[bassbrad]

Welcome back @Vlad5 from the nether regions. In the past 5 years there are some things you have missed so let me share a couple with you.
Source Audio is offering immensely usable and great sounding devices on in particular that you might find useful is the Ultrawave Multiband Bass Processor that may provide a solution you might miss. Not only does it offer some amazing effects sounds it has a sonic toolbox under the hood. It has a 3 band semi parametric EQ, 7 band graphic EQ, Input HPF and noise gate, Low and Hi pass filters and an excellent compressor plus 128 storable locations for your sounds.

 

[jdjk7]

What recommendations (based on personal experience, please) do you all have for a pedal to end my signal chain so that my rather gravely bass signal sounds good through our PA, A/D converter, and/or headphones.

Considerations include:
HPF/LPF - Broughton - prob gonna get the always-on HPF anyway since I've been meaning to for years.
Base Station - DSM/Humboldt - thing is, I already have an Omnicab Sim and it has never truly satisfied.
Element - Darkglass - digital DSP (hmm....a mini FM-3 for me?) but cab IR's! This seems to be the most promising since it would negate the need for an LPF (fizzy control).
Bass Box - Atomic - knobs! I'm into it. Seems to be loved around here.

Thoughts? Alternatives? I've already tried Sans Amps and similar (Tonehammer, etc.) and have never been happy with the results straight to a PA, mixer, phones, etc...

Ugh... writing all this I feel I may have answered my own question. Still, alternatives/suggestions?

The Broughton is a good choice. If you get the HPF/LPF, I don't necessarily see a reason to get the HPF.

My personal choice has been the OmniCabSim Deluxe and Mini. However, I have found that the Deluxe and Mini do differ in the characteristics of their filtering; there are some sounds the Mini can do that the Deluxe just can't. I still use both, because I like them each for different sounds.

Digital IR type emulations are popular and convenient, but truthfully I've just always leaned more on the side of analog filtering vs digital stuff. This is not based as much on experience.

Any analog cab simulation is just an hpf, an lpf, and maybe some mid frequency filtering. So there are certainly some EQ and preamp pedals that could do the job, if they include low and high pass filters (Shelving filters won't really do the job). If you're looking at full preamps, you could look at either version of the Broughton Messenger or Messenger DI preamps.

 

[matante]

I'm not clear on why you need a cab sim. Practice is practice. As far as running through a PA you only need to talk to the soundperson and make them aware of your distortion so they can take whatever precautions might be necessary to protect tweeters. If you're traveling as light as possible an extra pedal just for cab sim would be the last thing I'd want.

 

[smeet]

Some nice but kind of pricey options for amp-in-a-box: Origin BassRig (Ampeg and Fender flavor), and the new Jad Freer CAPO.

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

Some nice but kind of pricey options for amp-in-a-box: Origin BassRig (Ampeg and Fender flavor), and the new Jad Freer CAPO.

I do, in fact, have a CAPO coming. Two of the many cool features are the pre and post loops (I plan to use my Empress Para EQ Deluxe in there, but any other form of hpf-lpf/cabsim/IR could go in there).

 

[Vlad5]

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

I'm gonna play with the Bass Box and see how far DSP has come in the last half decade. Maybe it'll do.

Put myself on the 'email me when you build more' list at Broughton Audio for the RFE.
Adjustable resonance of the hp/lp filters? Yes please.

I'll look again at the SA stuff too. Tried their offerings way back and liked them well enough, though more options in a box than what I needed at the time, or now even really. Still have their expression pedal on my board.

The Origin stuff looks good, but unless they do a Mesa M9 in a box I'm kinda like, meh.
Even Mesa doesn't do that, sadly. (Subway DI doesn't count)
No doubt the Origin gear is top quality, I see em on a lot of fancy setups here.

Next week I'll get that Bass Box (and a Broughton HPF).
Then I'll go from there.

 

[Vlad5]

I got the Bass Box and it works rather well.
Better than expected actually.
Very well designed.
I'm using 3 stock settings:
- no amp / 8x10 Boogie
- DI / 8x10 Boogie
- Tube Amp / 8x10 Boogie

no amp and DI are very similar (DI is a little warmer). Best with the drives and Megalith.
Tube Amp is bassy and warm, so far my favorite with a little bass reduction. Best clean or with just the Hyberdrive.

I'm happy. Sounds good in headphones (Sennheiser HD-280 pro) and PA (Alto 1x10).

Next up:
Broughton FRE + Radial JDI
No direct headphone option with this setup but I can always plug my board into my Mackie Onyx Producer 2.2, which I'm using anyway as my DAC.
Next week.

Till then...

 

[TOOL460002]

I use a Two Notes Le Bass for this exact purpose.

 

[jimfist]

I've also got the Atomic Amps BassBox and think it's a solid multi-function box with cab sim IRs + OD, Comp & EQ. All of the IRs are provided by Dr. Bonkers. Pete Thorn did a nice demo of it.

 

[sloppy_phil]

Lots of ways nowadays to get to this particular outcome. For at-home headphone practice, and treating my DI signal live, I've been recently using a Two Notes Torpedo CAB M+. Too soon to make any definitive assessments, but so far so good! I've got a Sushi Box on my pedalboard as an always-on tube preamp, and that with the Torpedo make a solid combo. Given my main priority from a cab sim is for live gigging (mostly with an actual amp on stage, but on occasion just straight to IEM), and I'm just worried about sitting in a mix, I find the Torpedo is more than up to the task. Is it a perfect replica of a cab? No, probably not, but it's close enough in the ways that really matter to make it a perfect choice for me. Left my pedalboard and amp sound 100% intact, and gives me the DI sound I want for consistency from venue to venue.

 

[Vlad5]

Yeah that 2 Notes~ looks good, I think I'm gonna go on with the Bass Box till the RFE arrives (gotta buy it first though).

My goal is to sound good through a PA, I already sound awesome through my amp/cab.
I just want to duplicate that as close as I can, especially without access to my amp/cab.
I use a lot of effects, so I need a system that doesn't compromise the rather wide variety of sounds I can produce with them.

So far, the Bass Box is working pretty well.
Gotta slow down my pedal purchases, so trying out a 2 Notes will have to wait a minute.
But it's bookmarked for sure.

Thanks again friends!

 

[sloppy_phil]

I thought about the RFE from Broughton as well, but decided that I was sufficiently happy with my amp sound. I suspect it would still sound good (it's from Josh, after all), but I didn't want to add anything that would further EQ/change my tone in regards to my amp/stage sound. Hence the Torpedo; it was the least invasive option for getting great DI/FOH sound. And I managed to snag one used locally, so it actually cost me about the same as a new RFE, which made it a total no-brainer... the exchange rate to USD is pretty grim right now! And despite also being Torontonian, Broughton prices are USD, and there is no local pickup option available

Bass Box looks like a good choice for now! Is there a reason you feel compelled to get the RFE instead?

 

[Vlad5]

I just want to try as many options as I can (afford).
The Bass Box is a digital modeler, and I prefer to keep the 1s and 0s to a minimum on my board.
That is, analog to digital and back again.
I dont mind analog to digital conversion into my DAW (have to, of course).
Just prefer to go all analog as much as possible.
That said, if it sounds good it is good.
And the Bass Box sounds pretty good.
Maybe the RFE will sound better?
Maybe not.

 

[BEADist]

Instead of boring low and high pass filters, the RFE has resonant filters, plus parametric mids.
For my personal application this is gold. I can have a slight mid hump. Or scoop. I can set the cutoff frequency of the HPF a bit higher and then boost it. It sounds fatter, yet clears up nicely.

Thanks for reminding me of this trick. On my list of things to try!

I am relying on SansAmp cab/amp simulation (to FOH) and although that always gives me thumbs up with sound engineers in no time I actually feel it is a bit 'intrusive'. I should revisit this stuff somewhat with your mentioned trick as one of the ingredients .