Subwoofer recommendations?

[craigie]

Greetings y'all!

I've been thinking of adding a sub or pair of subs to our setup to get more kick drum oomph (tight punch specifically) and of course to fill out the bottom end a bit better. Honestly I feel the bottom end is good bass-wise and if anything I use the bass EQ knob to cut bass in a boomy room.

We have Electrovoice ELX115 mains and ELX112 monitors and plenty of power to run them. I DI from my amp and run a pretty low stage volume from my amp. These speakers sound fantastic and I highly recommend them along with the Peavey Xr1212 powered mixer (although I'd look into digital these days). This is my buddy's system he bought about 5 years ago.

My thoughts are to add a single sub. I have a spare QSC GX3 which can put out 2 x 425 watts with two 4 ohm loads, or 1 x 500 watts with one 4 ohm load (and it has a switchable 100Hz crossover). I'm thinking one passive 4 ohm subwoofer would do the trick and take some of the load off of the mains--maybe not cutting the sub 100 hz frequencies from the mains, but bringing the EQ sliders down in that range (my buddy boosts the bejesus out of the lows with the graphic EQ, but hey, it sounds good). Of course, the sound test is what matters and the ears know, but just looking for ideas about what might fit the bill. Problem is most subs made nowadays are active and it seems the price premium for powered vs passive is not very much. I even have two peavey BW 15" 8ohm speakers I could pirate from the FX-1 cabinets of an SP1 system but that seems a waste of time and money.

We tried two subs before but took them back. Both were used. One issue I discovered is it's very important and tricky to balance the levels of the mains and subs. Otherwise at a certain point on the neck my notes disappeared, depending on the crossover frequency.

1. Yorkville sound UCS1P I believe. 15" speakers (2 if I recall) , tons of power. The problem with this one was the bass drum was a little bit too "poofy" sounding. More like a DJ type thing where they are boosting the low lows. Makes sense with the response this thing has at 40 hz. Very heavy and awkward although the castors were nice.

2. A pair of L6L3S subwoofers which have two 12" speakers each. Lots of power with two units and I liked the variable crossover. The problem with these was they were farting out, and not because we were overdriving them. They may have been mistreated in the past, who knows. Anyway, they were no good and indicative of future quality of these units even if we wanted to buy them new. Too bad because the bass response was much tighter. I put it down to more 12" speakers compared to 15".

 

[Downunderwonder]

Build a couple of BFM T39's. Your biggest expense is the pair of 3012LF.

 

[craigie]

Build a couple of BFM T39's. Your biggest expense is the pair of 3012LF.

Thanks! I'll look into it. Did you build these DUW?

Looks very interesting in fact! Looks like a great speaker.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Thanks! I'll look into it. Did you build these DUW?

Looks very interesting in fact! Looks like a great speaker.

No, but I have heard the bigger T48. Clean clean clean oomph. The LF extension of those is overkill when you only want to booty up kickdrum. T39 are very much easier to transport but go quite low enough for you.

 

[craigie]

No, but I have heard the bigger T48. Clean clean clean oomph. The LF extension of those is overkill when you only want to booty up kickdrum. T39 are very much easier to transport but go quite low enough for you.

That's what I gathered from the website. Nice to hear it confirmed.

 

[s0c9]

1. Yorkville sound UCS1P I believe. 15" speakers (2 if I recall) , tons of power. The problem with this one was the bass drum was a little bit too "poofy" sounding. More like a DJ type thing where they are boosting the low lows. Makes sense with the response this thing has at 40 hz. Very heavy and awkward although the castors were nice.

That's your kick EQ and possibly the mic you are using. Those UCS1P's are TIGHT subs.. if you configure them correctly. You did state above that "my buddy boosts the bejesus out of the lows with the graphic EQ"

2. A pair of L6L3S subwoofers which have two 12" speakers each. Lots of power with two units and I liked the variable crossover. The problem with these was they were farting out, and not because we were overdriving them. They may have been mistreated in the past, who knows. Anyway, they were no good and indicative of future quality of these units even if we wanted to buy them new. Too bad because the bass response was much tighter. I put it down to more 12" speakers compared to 15".

No, what it shows is that the cones are possibly damaged from prior misuse, or you're pushing way too much into them at lower frequencies or both
I own a pair of SL800P's (1500w, 18") and they have been working fine since day one.. but then, I have some clue as to what I'm doing. The Yorkies have been rock solid.
I recommend you set everything flat on your kick, bass and the subs... and start from there.
Play some music you are REALLY familiar with thru the PA and adjust the sub settings to get it sounding great. Then LEAVE those alone.
Now adjust your instruments going into the subs.

One sub will work, but - one or two - you need to set up the crossover points correctly based on the speaker specs. If you've got a sub, you should cut below 100Hz on the tops, tho that will depend on the tops xover capabilities. Ideally, you want the crossover points to overlap (efficiency will depend on the available filters) so you don't get nodes (dead spots) and other artifacts.
Alternatively, get some you know who's a FOH guy to help you set it up.

 

[craigie]

That's your kick EQ and possibly the mic you are using. Those UCS1P's are TIGHT subs.. if you configure them correctly. You did state above that "my buddy boosts the bejesus out of the lows with the graphic EQ"

No, what it shows is that the cones are possibly damaged from prior misuse, or you're pushing way too much into them at lower frequencies or both
I own a pair of SL800P's (1500w, 18") and they have been working fine since day one.. but then, I have some clue as to what I'm doing. The Yorkies have been rock solid.
I recommend you set everything flat on your kick, bass and the subs... and start from there.
Play some music you are REALLY familiar with thru the PA and adjust the sub settings to get it sounding great. Then LEAVE those alone.
Now adjust your instruments going into the subs.

One sub will work, but - one or two - you need to set up the crossover points correctly based on the speaker specs. If you've got a sub, you should cut below 100Hz on the tops, tho that will depend on the tops xover capabilities. Ideally, you want the crossover points to overlap (efficiency will depend on the available filters) so you don't get nodes (dead spots) and other artifacts.
Alternatively, get some you know who's a FOH guy to help you set it up.

Thanks very the tips. You are 100% correct IMO. I don't remember but we would have set the EQ flat to start with. The issue is using midi tracks lol but that's another discussion. The bass drum is very tight sounding of course since it's digital but was already maxed in the tracks so the only way to get more is increase the low EQ or in that case the sub gain which unfortunately didn't balance with the mains. I have since found a way using Cubase to lower the velocity of all instruments giving me a bit of "headroom" for the kick.

Regarding the subs, they were all used and apparently had been abused. That Yorkville one certainly was a beast. I just wish it was a bit tighter. Honestly I don't believe it was due to the "bass drum EQ" because the midi is so tight sounding and has none of that rumble a real bass drum could introduce. For EQ we tried twisting knobs and moving sliders but if the gain isn't set properly there's just no way to fix that.

It's not too attractive to invest in subs since we have a great sound without them and just want that 11, and it's not like we can charge any more. If we absolutely needed them we could rent for a gig which would be a great opportunity to try out different brands, but hasn't come up yet. Plus the system is my buddy's and I give him a cut for it. I don't want to shell out a couple of $k for subs and then be left with just subs eventually. I do have a cheaper "backup system" which we never use. All those reasons are why I'm thinking of one or two "economical" subs just to add to our main system and go along with mine. He's also set on the idea of one sub under each main so I know it would not be easy to integrate well and he'd probably value kick hit above bass sound. Soooo maybe I'm better off as we are

Still I'd love to know what the decent quality subs agedhorse was referring to. I saw a well informed post from him on a speaker forum while reading about speakers and subs. All the help from y'all is very much appreciated!!!

 

[s0c9]

Adding subs (when used correctly) will [generally] make a HUGE difference to your overall PA sound. It will also [potentially] lower stage volumes, save some ears and give you better overall mix and stage levels control...

PS: was not aware you were using midi tracks. That is another discussion as you are now trying to make PRE-EQ'd tracks work in a "LIVE" room.. can be TOUGH!

 

[craigie]

Adding subs (when used correctly) will [generally] make a HUGE difference to your overall PA sound. It will also [potentially] lower stage volumes, save some ears and give you better overall mix and stage levels control...

PS: was not aware you were using midi tracks. That is another discussion as you are now trying to make PRE-EQ'd tracks work in a "LIVE" room.. can be TOUGH!

That is true! I have to give my buddy credit though that he gets a great sound within these constraints. The good thing about the midi is it's consistent.

Lowering stage volume? Maybe. He likes a loud stage volume to "feel the punch" so subs would help.with that.

Hopefully our three piece gets off the ground this fall. Wait, fall is here

 

[dheafey]

IME, sloppy low end (poofiness, muddiness, etc...) is almost always due to the kick drum and bass (sometimes keys) existing in the same audible space. Carving out room for each can go a long way towards cleaning it up. Here's a good article on the subject. I would also suggest not only an LPF at 100Hz but an HPF set at 35Hz - 40Hz (you'll have to experiment). This will prevent low end rumbling from occurring.

If you can, AUX fed subs are a beautiful thing. There's plenty of material online.

 

[dheafey]

IME, sloppy low end (poofiness, muddiness, etc...) is almost always due to the kick drum and bass (sometimes keys) existing in the same audible space. Carving out room for each can go a long way towards cleaning it up. Here's a good article on the subject. I would also suggest not only an LPF at 100Hz but an HPF set at 35Hz - 40Hz (you'll have to experiment). This will prevent low end rumbling from occurring.

If you can, AUX fed subs are a beautiful thing. There's plenty of material online.

And another good article: Mixing Bass and Kick for Low-End Balance | Ledger Note

 

[craigie]

And another good article: Mixing Bass and Kick for Low-End Balance | Ledger Note

Haven't read your link yet but did just read a peavey article about aux fed subs last night (great suggestions, thanks!) It makes sense but we don't have an additional aux channel to implement it, and the way the board's power amps and EQ are setup the mains have to be fed left/right even though we mix everything mono.

The midi kick is tight and I HPF everything but midi tracks and bass. HPF would be good for bass too.

 

[dheafey]

Haven't read your link yet but did just read a peavey article about aux fed subs last night (great suggestions, thanks!) It makes sense but we don't have an additional aux channel to implement it, and the way the board's power amps and EQ are setup the mains have to be fed left/right even though we mix everything mono.

The midi kick is tight and I HPF everything but midi tracks and bass. HPF would be good for bass too.

I'll be making a lot of assumptions here as I don't know what gear you have, but wanted to throw out some ideas. Assuming all speakers are 8 Ohm, amps are capable of going into mono and handling a 4 Ohm load, and a dual 31 band GEQ.

Board LEFT->GEQ Channel 1->SUB Amp (set to mono)->SUBs in parallel
Board RIGHT->GEQ Channel 2->MAIN Amp (set to mono)->MAINs in parallel

This will give you more control over the SUB and MAIN levels as well as the ability to EQ them separately. In addition, most GEQs have level controls and some may have HPF/LPF capabilities. You'll also be able to take your PAN control on each channel strip and pan LEFT for bass heavy instruments (bass, kick, keys, midi) and pan RIGHT for higher content. This is the poor man's way of doing it, but it works well and gives you a bit more control.

 

[musicman7722]

Haven't read your link yet but did just read a peavey article about aux fed subs last night (great suggestions, thanks!) It makes sense but we don't have an additional aux channel to implement it, and the way the board's power amps and EQ are setup the mains have to be fed left/right even though we mix everything mono.

The midi kick is tight and I HPF everything but midi tracks and bass. HPF would be good for bass too.

 

[musicman7722]

Try resetting your amps and do what I do which is the pan left and right trick. Pan all your low instruments, kick, bass maybe keys etc. to dead center. Pan all the rest to one side, say right. Now use the side with all the instruments panned to go to the tops while the other side goes to the subs. This keeps all the junk out of your trunk (subs). You can balance the sound if need be with the power amp volumes.

 

[craigie]

Try resetting your amps and do what I do which is the pan left and right trick. Pan all your low instruments, kick, bass maybe keys etc. to dead center. Pan all the rest to one side, say right. Now use the side with all the instruments panned to go to the tops while the other side goes to the subs. This keeps all the junk out of your trunk (subs). You can balance the sound if need be with the power amp volumes.

I have read about that trick on TB, thanks!
The power amp setup is unfortunately very limited on the peavey XR1212 and forces you to use L/R if you want to use both internal amps for the mains. Each of the two master graphic EQ's is also assigned to each power amp; a poor setup IMO.

Although there is a built-in crossover at 100hz that can be enabled or defeated when a sub is being used, if we L/R everything then we lose half our mains headroom. Plus with midi tracks I can't send just the kick. It's all or none. But.....it would be great for controlling the bass levels, I agree. I can see the amazing power of digital mixers to control every aspect of the mix.

I think I'll go back and reread everybody's posts and links here to make sure I haven't missed anything.

The original question remains about a good sub woofer for our needs. To refresh: setup is peavey XR1212 analog powered mixer into EV passive 15" mains being run off both internal power amps and EV passive 12" monitors run off an external QSC GX5 amp. I have an additional QSC GX3 amp on hand (2 x 425 W @ 4 ohms, 500 W one 4 ohm load), but that's not enough to power subs for this system I'm sure. (I'll edit this post to give all the amp power ratings later).

 

[Bullitt5135]

Have you considered the EV ELX sub?
"Optimized for performance with the ELX112P and ELX115P, the ELX118P adds a deep, low-frequency, amplified punch that you can hear and feel." When your mains are switched to "WITH SUB", it activates a 100 Hz highpass for use with a subwoofer.

I own RCF Art315a mains and a pair of (DIY) Bill Fitzmaurice BFM Titan39 subs and power amp. While my system performs great, sometimes I wonder if it would just be easier to simplify things and get a powered RCF sub that's designed to be paired with my mains -- and not have to deal with the outboard amp and crossovers.

 

[craigie]

Have you considered the EV ELX sub?
"Optimized for performance with the ELX112P and ELX115P, the ELX118P adds a deep, low-frequency, amplified punch that you can hear and feel." When your mains are switched to "WITH SUB", it activates a 100 Hz highpass for use with a subwoofer.

I own RCF Art315a mains and a pair of (DIY) Bill Fitzmaurice BFM Titan39 subs and power amp. While my system performs great, sometimes I wonder if it would just be easier to simplify things and get a powered RCF sub that's designed to be paired with my mains -- and not have to deal with the outboard amp and crossovers.

I looked at that musicians friend link and some of the reviews weren't very glowing....
I picked up a used Yorkville NX720S today from long and McQuade for $500 CAD. We’ll see how it does. It's in fact a very similar design to that electro voice in concept and appearance, but of course that doesn't mean in performance. So far with my smaller backup system it seems good. Adds some girth to the kick and bass. It seemed overpowered by the 4 ohm mains which get loud quickly even though I'm sure it had a ton of headroom because the mixer volume was at about 2. This is the problem with having a mixer with left/right tied to the power amps and only one monitor channel. I'll have to think about using the extra line level sends creatively....
Can't tell in my single garage standing two feet from the mains what the real balance is like.

I like the variable crossover. 700 watts program seems in the ballpark but maybe not loud enough considering we have about 700 watts mains because they are 8 ohm speakers for our usual system. I'm hoping we can control the sub level separately with the peavey XR1212.
The sub may serve the purpose if we don't take the low out of the mains just to add that little punch without having as loud a stage and FOH volume and allow us to flatten the low EQ relieving strain on the mains.

 

[craigie]

OK, according to the manual and the block diagram I can assign the EQ'S as left/right. Then I'll jumper the left post EQ out to the amp B input. The the right post EQ out can go to the sub. So the L/R sub send hack can be implemented! Thanks for suggesting it!

The other possibility is to assign the EQ'S as main/mon (which sums the L/R for main) and jumper the main post EQ out to the amp B input. The pre EQ main out can go to the sub. Then I get monitor EQ but no sub level control--it just gets the summed L/R signal. So doesn't seem as useful as the first option.