To Slave or Not to Slave

[HailSatan4ever]

Hi, first post on the site after lurking for years. I hope to continue to learn and possibly contribute where I can...

Anyway, I have been presented the opportunity to acquire a Sunn Coliseum slave amp. I currently use an Orange ad200b (has a slave output). It’s plenty loud on its own, but I play doom and stoner rock and multiple amps are appealing to me. Simply put, how would I safely connect the slave to my Orange and what might I expect to experience as far as tonal and volume changes? Thanks so much, guys.

 

[Wasnex]

Slave out to slave in. Adjust the slave's volume to match the orange. (both get their own speaker) It should be louder and fuller sounding. At some point as you crank the volume one of the amps will begin to distort. The Orange should be fine running flat out and nasty. I am not confident the Sunn slave will survive for long...it might or it might not. Good luck and have fun.

 

[HailSatan4ever]

I have also noticed that when I crank my Orange and crank the gain, it’s not breaking up at all like others have reported. It may sound slightly grittier but it’s pretty much clean all the way through. Is that normal? I have used an OB1-500 that had nice distortion with the gain up. The ad200b sounds GREAT, just doesn’t break up for me.

 

[BassmanPaul]

The problem I see that might occur is if one amp inverts the polarity of the signal and the other does not. If the final result is two speaker cabinets working together one of which has a reversed polarity they will fight all night.

 

[Wasnex]

I have also noticed that when I crank my Orange and crank the gain, it’s not breaking up at all like others have reported. It may sound slightly grittier but it’s pretty much clean all the way through. Is that normal? I have used an OB1-500 that had nice distortion with the gain up. The ad200b sounds GREAT, just doesn’t break up for me.

Did you buy the amp new? A common mod is to replace the 12AX7 in V1 with a 5751. The 5751 has lower gain than a 12AX7. I don't believe this mod gives the amp any headroom, but it increase the Gain setting required to produce distortion. I have tried the 5751 in other amps and preferred the 12AX7.

I bought my AD200B used and have not checked which preamp tubes are in it. My amp seems perfectly calibrated for max clean power with the Master wide open. If I dial the Master back and crank up the Gain, the preamp starts to develop drive at about 1 or 2 o'clock when I use the passive input. If I switched to the active input it would be required to crank the gain further to get any drive. If you are using the Active input, try the Passive.

I think a lot of complaints about this amp relate to it's power output. Common bench test readings show about 165 watts of clean power. I have several 200 watt heads and the Orange sits about middle of the pack volume wise. They are all louder than my 100 watt tube amps and less loud than my 300 watt tube amps. A healthy SVT is significantly louder.

IMHO, you should be able to get a really nice mix of preamp and power amp drive out of this amp. The slave out is tapped off the OT, so any drive produced by the Orange should be fed to your Sunn.

 

[HailSatan4ever]

Did you buy the amp new? A common mod is to replace the 12AX7 in V1 with a 5751. The 5751 has lower gain than a 12AX7. I don't believe this mod gives the amp any headroom, but it increase the Gain setting required to produce distortion. I have tried the 5751 in other amps and preferred the 12AX7.

I bought my AD200B used and have not checked which preamp tubes are in it. My amp seems perfectly calibrated for max clean power with the Master wide open. If I dial the Master back and crank up the Gain, the preamp starts to develop drive at about 1 or 2 o'clock when I use the passive input. If I switched to the active input it would be required to crank the gain further to get any drive. If you are using the Active input, try the Passive.

I think a lot of complaints about this amp relate to it's power output. Common bench test readings show about 165 watts of clean power. I have several 200 watt heads and the Orange sits about middle of the pack volume wise. They are all louder than my 100 watt tube amps and less loud than my 300 watt tube amps. A healthy SVT is significantly louder.

IMHO, you should be able to get a really nice mix of preamp and power amp drive out of this amp. The slave out is tapped off the OT, so any drive produced by the Orange should be fed to your Sunn.

Wow, great response. I’m glad I mentioned this issue. I did buy the amp used and I have not checked to see which pre tubes are installed but I know my big boys are JJ 6550s (I can’t recall what comes stock in the ad200b). Something is definitely up, because she is a clean machine all the way up. I have tried both inputs. Beautiful tube tone, she just won’t get dirty for me atm. Do you think a simple change at V1 will spice things up?

 

[HailSatan4ever]

Also, this just came to mind...

I typically use an Ampeg 810, but it is in storage. Without thinking, I paired the Orange up with a backup cab for rehearsal until until we finish moving everything into our new home. The backup is a cheap (let’s face it, $500 is cheap for what we are trying to do here) Acoustic neodymium 410 that is at 800w. It’s designed for a class D solid state amp. Is the 800 watt 410 causing this issue??

 

[Wasnex]

Wow, great response. I’m glad I mentioned this issue. I did buy the amp used and I have not checked to see which pre tubes are installed but I know my big boys are JJ 6550s (I can’t recall what comes stock in the ad200b). Something is definitely up, because she is a clean machine all the way up. I have tried both inputs. Beautiful tube tone, she just won’t get dirty for me atm. Do you think a simple change at V1 will spice things up?

Is it not possible to push the output section into overdrive?

I would check to see what tubes are in V1 and V2 to make sure both are 12AX7s. Maybe the seller can tell you so you don't have to open the amp up. If you want some preamp drive, a high gain 12AX7 in V1 should hook you up, unless something is wrong with the amp. The original tube compliment is 2 12AX7s, 1 12AT7, and 4 6550s.


This page has diagram with the tube layout. Orange AD200B High Gain Option

IMHO It might be worth spending a couple of dollars extra to get balanced tubes for V2 and V3. V2 is the phase inverter and V3 is the driver. Ensuring you have reasonably balanced tubes in these positions should help the amp produce maximum power. YMMV

 

[Wasnex]

Also, this just came to mind...

I typically use an Ampeg 810, but it is in storage. Without thinking, I paired the Orange up with a backup cab for rehearsal until until we finish moving everything into our new home. The backup is a cheap (let’s face it, $500 is cheap for what we are trying to do here) Acoustic neodymium 410 that is at 800w. It’s designed for a class D solid state amp. Is the 800 watt 410 causing this issue??

The speaker will not have any impact on your preamp. The speaker will interact with the output section a bit, but it should not have much, if any, effect on the amount of distortion the amp produces.

Makes sure you are properly matching the speaker impedance to the amp. The plugs on the back are a bit misleading. The amp only has two transformer taps 8 ohms and 4 ohms. You can connect one 8 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm plug. You can connect two 8 ohm speakers, one to each 4 ohm plug. You can connect one 4 ohm speaker to either 4 ohm plug. Do not connect two 4 ohm speakers to each 4 ohm plug as the amp is not rated for 2 ohms. (see page 14 of the attached manual)

 

[HailSatan4ever]

The speaker will not have any impact on your preamp. The speaker will interact with the output section a bit, but it should not have much, if any, effect on the amount of distortion the amp produces.

Makes sure you are properly matching the speaker impedance to the amp. The plugs on the back are a bit misleading. The amp only has two transformer taps 8 ohms and 4 ohms. You can connect one 8 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm plug. You can connect two 8 ohm speakers, one to each 4 ohm plug. You can connect one 4 ohm speaker to either 4 ohm plug. Do not connect two 4 ohm speakers to each 4 ohm plug as the amp is not rated for 2 ohms. (see page 14 of the attached manual)

The speaker will not have any impact on your preamp. The speaker will interact with the output section a bit, but it should not have much, if any, effect on the amount of distortion the amp produces.

Makes sure you are properly matching the speaker impedance to the amp. The plugs on the back are a bit misleading. The amp only has two transformer taps 8 ohms and 4 ohms. You can connect one 8 ohm speaker to the 8 ohm plug. You can connect two 8 ohm speakers, one to each 4 ohm plug. You can connect one 4 ohm speaker to either 4 ohm plug. Do not connect two 4 ohm speakers to each 4 ohm plug as the amp is not rated for 2 ohms. (see page 14 of the attached manual)

Thanks so much again for the responses. Yep, I’m from 8ohm to 8ohm. I’m still cranking the gain and it’s still clean. It’s practically like I just have 2 separate volume knobs lol. I am just going to go with a tube change and see what that brings me. Again, what are the dirtiest most unclean tubes I can get for this thing?

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks so much again for the responses. Yep, I’m from 8ohm to 8ohm. I’m still cranking the gain and it’s still clean. It’s practically like I just have 2 separate volume knobs lol. I am just going to go with a tube change and see what that brings me. Again, what are the dirtiest most unclean tubes I can get for this thing?

So if you dime your gain you don't get any distortion? Is the output of your bass really low? I am really curious to know what preamp tubes you have in your amp.

Hard to say which tubes are best as they behave a little different in each circuit. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the following three 12AX7s.

I have only rolled tubes for OD once and my favorite was the Chinese Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 (~$26), the standard version rather than the more expensive ECC83/B759 (~$42) which is a Russian made tube. The Gold Lion produced the darkest and least fizzy distortion of all the tubes I tested. It had great touch sensitivity and transitioned smoothly from clean to OD. The fundamental of notes remained strong and clear down to open B with relatively high levels of drive. I.E. the lows didn't wash out. This was my experience with the tube in the OD channel of a Trace Elliot V8, which is a relatively high gain circuit. No guarantee you will get the same results in the AD200.

My second choice was a Shuguang or Sino 12AX7B (~$12). This tube was the highest gain tube I tried and it sounded almost as good as the Gold Lion. Distortion came on almost as smoothly as the Genalex but the tone was a bit thinner and the low end washed out a bit earlier. The distortion was also a bit brighter.

My third choice was a Tung Sol 12AX7 (~$17). Distortion and timbre was very similar to the Sino 12AX7B, but it had less gain. The Tung Sol’s transition from clean to distortion was a bit less linear than the Sino.

 

[anderbass]

Have you already tried other bass guitars with your Orange amp?

Pickups that were adjusted too low/strings too high, or weak batteries in an active bass could be another possible culprit.

 

[HailSatan4ever]

Have you already tried other bass guitars with your Orange amp?

Pickups that were adjusted too low/strings too high, or weak batteries in an active bass could be another possible culprit.

This is something I haven’t considered. I have only played a Gibson Thunderbird through it (neck-thru...stock passive Gibson USA pickups). It has fairly low action, but my neck pickup is set pretty low. I had to sell 2 Fender P’s and my vintage Kramer is disassembled (replacing the pots), so it will be a minute before I can test with an alternate bass. Maybe I’ll raise the neck pickup and see what happens. My next purchase will be a Ric 4003 and it can’t come soon enough.