Double Bass To slur on not to slur

[cocas]

Hi guys,

Been a lon time follower of talkbass, and found loads of useful info here. I don't know if this belongs in this section or the jazz technique subforum, but since it concerns arco technique, I'll post here.

Been playing electric bass for almost 20 years and I have a good technique/theory basis, and for some months I've been practicing double bass, mainly arco, and I've fallen in love with the possibilities that the bow offers in terms of expression.

Since there's not a lot of teachers around, I've been learning by myself and lately I've been practicing melodies as a way to work on my technique. Jazz heads, bluegrass and celtic tunes, and any melodies that have captivated my ears.

So my question is:
When you are playing a melody that is intended for another instruments (or vocals) how do you decide when playing note-per-note bow strokes (detache) or multiple notes per bow stroke(legato)?
I've been doing it by feeling but wondering if you have a method for deciding when to slur. I also noticed that a lot of old jazz arco solos are mainly single strokes (chambers, stewart..) but I'm usually trying to have a more clear sound and emulate horns/vocal phrasing.

My db heroes atm (the sound I'm aiming at) are Edgar Meyer and Olivier Babaz.

Bonus question:
When in TP, how do you play a descending 4th without having any silence between the notes? Like playing an A on the G string followed by an E on the D string.

Thanks guys, keep on rockin!

 

[the_Ryan]

Hi guys,

Been a lon time follower of talkbass, and found loads of useful info here. I don't know if this belongs in this section or the jazz technique subforum, but since it concerns arco technique, I'll post here.

Been playing electric bass for almost 20 years and I have a good technique/theory basis, and for some months I've been practicing double bass, mainly arco, and I've fallen in love with the possibilities that the bow offers in terms of expression.

Since there's not a lot of teachers around, I've been learning by myself and lately I've been practicing melodies as a way to work on my technique. Jazz heads, bluegrass and celtic tunes, and any melodies that have captivated my ears.

So my question is:
When you are playing a melody that is intended for another instruments (or vocals) how do you decide when playing note-per-note bow strokes (detache) or multiple notes per bow stroke(legato)?
I've been doing it by feeling but wondering if you have a method for deciding when to slur. I also noticed that a lot of old jazz arco solos are mainly single strokes (chambers, stewart..) but I'm usually trying to have a more clear sound and emulate horns/vocal phrasing.

My db heroes atm (the sound I'm aiming at) are Edgar Meyer and Olivier Babaz.

Bonus question:
When in TP, how do you play a descending 4th without having any silence between the notes? Like playing an A on the G string followed by an E on the D string.

Thanks guys, keep on rockin!

My usual rule of thumb is to slur when a wind player, brass player, or singer slurs and separate or hook when they tongue or change syllables. There will almost certainly be times when you’ll have to break up a long slur or modify the articulation for execution purposes, but it’s a pretty good place to start.

In a masterclass with Edgar Meyer that I attended, he mentioned that he believes that classically-trained string players tend to rely on slurring and only thinking about the left hand when improvising when it’s really our bow that produces our voice, rhythm, and phrasing. I don’t think he necessarily means that we should never slur when improvising, but instead it’s about being intentional with our articulation decisions and recognizing that the bow has more impact on our phrasing than the LH does.

For thumb position fourths, since the traditional barring or rolling you can do in low positions isn’t really possible you have two options if you want zero gap in the sound: forking, which is where you orient your hand position so that (for example) you can play the A with 2 and the E with 1 (going from high to low, 3^2, 2^1, and +^1 tend to work best for me, on two harmonics I can get away with 4^3, 1^+ is really uncomfortable for me, and I sometimes use 1^2 as part of a crab), or you can barre or roll fourths with the thumb by developing a callus near the knuckle and one under the nail.

 

[Wasnex]

There's sort of a continuum to consider between detached notes, smooth notes, and slurred notes.

Check the articulation and phrasing marks on the score and whatever part you are playing.

If the music has no markings or commands such as legato or staccato, or you are playing by ear or improvising. Listen and use your best judgment.

When you cross strings, you can continue in the same bow direction while playing a detached or smooth notes. Same idea as raking on bass guitar.

 

[cocas]

In a masterclass with Edgar Meyer that I attended, he mentioned that he believes that classically-trained string players tend to rely on slurring and only thinking about the left hand when improvising when it’s really our bow that produces our voice, rhythm, and phrasing. I don’t think he necessarily means that we should never slur when improvising, but instead it’s about being intentional with our articulation decisions and recognizing that the bow has more impact on our phrasing than the LH does.

That's funny because that is one of the things I love about Meyer, when he plays those slick bluegrass lines all slurred.

Thanks for the tips, I was instinctively doing the forking you mentioned, but it's sometimes hard to get proper intonation on the lowest note without changing a lot the orientation of my LH. Which can be tricky while playing faster passages. I had thought of the thumb barre as well, but I had a sharp pain when barring the lowest string, so I haven't tried it for long. Maybe just a lack of callous.

 

[Co.]

Thanks for the tips, I was instinctively doing the forking you mentioned, but it's sometimes hard to get proper intonation on the lowest note without changing a lot the orientation of my LH. Which can be tricky while playing faster passages. I had thought of the thumb barre as well, but I had a sharp pain when barring the lowest string, so I haven't tried it for long. Maybe just a lack of callous.

I don't really change orientation of my left hand in thumb position for forking, because I anyways have my fingers pointing more or less in the direction of the bridge.
Most beginners (me included, a couple of years back) try to shift the hand shape from the lower position into the thumb position, keeping the fingers more or less perpendicular to the string. This not really effective and goes somewhat against the natural motion and orientation of the hand in that position. In thumb position, the hand can actually just hang there loosely from the wrist, so the fingers are pointing to the bridge and 2nd and 3rd finger naturally fall into the interval of a 4th across the strings.
This is porobably not the clearest explanation, but just watch any video of Joel Quarrington (and get his method books; very affordable, by the way) and you will get, what I am trying explain.

Barring with thumb is special. With harmonics, it is pretty easy, but with stopped notes, I find it almost impossible to get it working. But there is a way, to press the upper note with the thumb and press the lower note sideway with the tip of the thumb, or even the nail. This is a bit of an emergency solution, but it can work.

 

[the_Ryan]

I don't really change orientation of my left hand in thumb position for forking, because I anyways have my fingers pointing more or less in the direction of the bridge.
Most beginners (me included, a couple of years back) try to shift the hand shape from the lower position into the thumb position, keeping the fingers more or less perpendicular to the string. This not really effective and goes somewhat against the natural motion and orientation of the hand in that position. In thumb position, the hand can actually just hang there loosely from the wrist, so the fingers are pointing to the bridge and 2nd and 3rd finger naturally fall into the interval of a 4th across the strings.
This is porobably not the clearest explanation, but just watch any video of Joel Quarrington (and get his method books; very affordable, by the way) and you will get, what I am trying explain.

Barring with thumb is special. With harmonics, it is pretty easy, but with stopped notes, I find it almost impossible to get it working. But there is a way, to press the upper note with the thumb and press the lower note sideway with the tip of the thumb, or even the nail. This is a bit of an emergency solution, but it can work.

Thumb barres and developing the nail callus are one of those things that has to be worked on daily for like 2–3 minutes at a time. There’s also definitely a point when barring just isn’t feasible and you have to switch to rolling (for me it’s anything higher than having my knuckle on the A on the G string) due to thumb shape. However, the nail callus does have some other benefits: if you’re not barring and you’re using the nail instead of the knuckle, it forces the fingers to be more in line with the thumb, whereas with the knuckle the thumb has to jut out a bit or the fingers have to curl inwards, which distorts that hand shape. Once I’m in Rabbath fifth position, unless I absolutely have to roll fourths or have to keep my thumb over two harmonics, I pretty exclusively use my nail over my knuckle because of how it orients my hand.

There is a correct place to have the nail callus, and if you get sharp pain stop immediately. It’ll probably be a bit further out than you think.

(Apologies if the images are at weird angles or are unclear)

 

[AGCurry]

Bonus question:
When in TP, how do you play a descending 4th without having any silence between the notes? Like playing an A on the G string followed by an E on the D string.

This is all bow technique, and I assume you're trying to slur those two notes. My teacher tells me that a) I must have my LH fingers in position before the slur, and b) the way to ensure that the second note sounds right is to STOP the bow's lateral movement for the tiniest slice of time between notes (coinciding with the downward RH movement to contact the lower string). When done right, it's an imperceptible pause to the listener. Of course, it takes practice ... like everything else.

 

[cocas]

Thumb barres and developing the nail callus are one of those things that has to be worked on daily for like 2–3 minutes at a time. There’s also definitely a point when barring just isn’t feasible and you have to switch to rolling (for me it’s anything higher than having my knuckle on the A on the G string) due to thumb shape. However, the nail callus does have some other benefits: if you’re not barring and you’re using the nail instead of the knuckle, it forces the fingers to be more in line with the thumb, whereas with the knuckle the thumb has to jut out a bit or the fingers have to curl inwards, which distorts that hand shape. Once I’m in Rabbath fifth position, unless I absolutely have to roll fourths or have to keep my thumb over two harmonics, I pretty exclusively use my nail over my knuckle because of how it orients my hand.

There is a correct place to have the nail callus, and if you get sharp pain stop immediately. It’ll probably be a bit further out than you think.

(Apologies if the images are at weird angles or are unclear)

Thank you for the tips, the photos helped a lot to understand what you meant, specially the dent on the tip of the thumb!
It looks a bit painful, but I'll try it out, even if I think I'll mainly use the "forking" technique. I also noticed that the angle at which the bass is when it rests on my shoulder changes the feeling of the thumb, I thinks it's easier if the bass is a bit more horizontal, I feel I can just apply pressure using the weight of my arm and not brute force to press down on the string

 

[cocas]

This is all bow technique, and I assume you're trying to slur those two notes. My teacher tells me that a) I must have my LH fingers in position before the slur, and b) the way to ensure that the second note sounds right is to STOP the bow's lateral movement for the tiniest slice of time between notes (coinciding with the downward RH movement to contact the lower string). When done right, it's an imperceptible pause to the listener. Of course, it takes practice ... like everything else.

You mean a short pause while string crossing? Almost as a second bow stroke in the same direction? I guess it would improve the attack of the 2nd note

 

[Co.]

What you are doing in the 4th picture, I am trying to avoid. This inward bending of the thumb is really uncomfortable to me. Sometimes I am using, what you are doing in the 5th picture, for example, if I need a lot of stretch between the thumb and another finger. For example in the case of some artificial harmonics.

Thumb barres and developing the nail callus are one of those things that has to be worked on daily for like 2–3 minutes at a time. There’s also definitely a point when barring just isn’t feasible and you have to switch to rolling (for me it’s anything higher than having my knuckle on the A on the G string) due to thumb shape. However, the nail callus does have some other benefits: if you’re not barring and you’re using the nail instead of the knuckle, it forces the fingers to be more in line with the thumb, whereas with the knuckle the thumb has to jut out a bit or the fingers have to curl inwards, which distorts that hand shape. Once I’m in Rabbath fifth position, unless I absolutely have to roll fourths or have to keep my thumb over two harmonics, I pretty exclusively use my nail over my knuckle because of how it orients my hand.

There is a correct place to have the nail callus, and if you get sharp pain stop immediately. It’ll probably be a bit further out than you think.

(Apologies if the images are at weird angles or are unclear)

 

[Co.]

You mean a short pause while string crossing? Almost as a second bow stroke in the same direction? I guess it would improve the attack of the 2nd note

Usually, you are slurring, to not give attack on the notes after the first note of the slur. There are many other articulations with or without changing the bow, but I thought, we were talking about the plain old slur.
Once the slur is at a certain speed, there won't be much time to slow the bow down anyway.
And then there are "theories", stating, that while crossing the string, for a tiny fraction of a second, there has to be a double stop. Depends on the music, style, tempo, acoustics,...

 

[AGCurry]

You mean a short pause while string crossing? Almost as a second bow stroke in the same direction? I guess it would improve the attack of the 2nd note

Kind of. It's really learning how to pivot the bow to the lower string without any lateral movement of hair on string.