Double Bass Transposing sheet music from treble to bass clef

[Ed S]

I often play with people who bring fiddle tunes written in treble clef. I can read treble clef fine for piano, but on bass, I prefer reading bass clef. (I've been working on playing some more complex melodies and melody-based breaks.) I stumbled on something yesterday that I THINK works, but my cellist tells me I'm crazy.

In short, if you have treble clef music, simply white out the bottom line (E) and add another line at the top. Doing that seems to result in the notes being where they should be in bass clef.

Expanded explanation. Bass clef lines bottom to top are GBDFA - Good Boys Don't Fool Around. Treble lines bottom to top are EGBDF - Every Good Boy Does Fine. If you white out the bottom treble line - the E - you have the bottom 4 lines of bass clef, GBDF. Add another line on the top and it is the A - GDBFA. Switch the clef symbols and you are good to go!

I did it with a piece of sheet music for Winder Slide and it reads correctly to my eyes.

Am I missing something obvious, or is this something all real musicians know?

 

[Lee Moses]

If that works for you, that's great. For the longer term, I would recommend learning to read treble clef cold. You'll probably always be stronger on bass clef, and that's not a bad thing, but you're going to find situations where treble clef is what you're handed.

 

[Paps]

Yes, great idea and method for writing it out.
I dont usually write out, but try to get familiar with treble by sight reading.

 

[Ed S]

... For the longer term, I would recommend learning to read treble clef cold. ...

Well, the problem with me is, there is quite a long list of things I really ought to work on "for the longer term."

I was just really surprised to see that the clefs worked like this, that by simply removing one line and adding another, it went from treble to bass clefs with the notes all in the right place.

 

[Ed S]

This is what I was talking about. Often a fiddler will bring in sheet music like this. Sure, I ought to get so I can just read it in treble and play it on my bass, but at present I can't, and it is just another hurdle in my working up more complex things to play.

So the edits I describe result in this.

Yes, I know a lot of the notes are now meaningless as they go WAY BELOW low E. But enough of it is readable that I can start out the melody and know that what I am playing will mesh with what the fiddler is playing.

 

[Wasnex]

I would recommend learning to read treble clef cold.

I second that!

Sure, I ought to get so I can just read it in treble and play it on my bass, but at present I can't, and it is just another hurdle in my working up more complex things to play.

...and you will never learn to read treble cleff, if you keep using this excuse.

If you continue using your trick, you will gain proficiency but your process will always have an extra step. If you start reading treble cleff, I believe your proficiency will quickly rise to at least the same level you have now with the trick. Long term, I think reading treble cleff will take you further than the trick.

I know a lot of the notes are now meaningless as they go WAY BELOW low E.

Exactly why it's better to read treble clef. If I try to use your trick, I get lost when it drops below the staff. If I simply read treble clef, I am good down to the A. Not so good with a bunch of ledger lines above the staff

I wouldn't say I am super proficient at reading treble cleff...but that's because I rarely do it.


I have this worked up. I am playing it around the 12th fret on my 6 string. Figuring out the fingering was harder than reading line.

 

[the_Ryan]

This is what I was talking about. Often a fiddler will bring in sheet music like this. Sure, I ought to get so I can just read it in treble and play it on my bass, but at present I can't, and it is just another hurdle in my working up more complex things to play.


View attachment 5338629

So the edits I describe result in this.

View attachment 5338630

Yes, I know a lot of the notes are now meaningless as they go WAY BELOW low E. But enough of it is readable that I can start out the melody and know that what I am playing will mesh with what the fiddler is playing.

For lead sheets in treble clef I find the most suitable range for bass to be played an octave lower than written (sounding two octaves lower). I find it easier to to transpose an octave lower from treble clef rather than an octave higher from bass clef because I can deal with ledger lines above the staff in treble clef much better than ledger lines below the staff in bass clef since bass parts have a hard cutoff at low B/C.

 

[srbbass]

Another helpful method can be to take an intervallic approach to reading in treble clef. If you know the starting note of a phrase and the key and can sense 2nds, 3rds, 4ths....octave, etc, it will take the mystery out pretty quickly, especially in diatonic melodies. (Yes chromatics and jazz modalities will be tougher). But yes, just learn treble clef. If you study classical bass for any length of time, you will be expected to read bass, tenor and treble clefs. That being said, I do like your hack!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

When I was young, I could read C-recorders (soprano & tenor) in violin clef, but could not play F-recorders (alto & bass).
I made a similar hack to play bass recorder in bass clef:
Play it like a C-recorder in violin clef but one note lower (means one more finger down).
After a while I didn‘t need to remember the hack and could play bass recorder without thinking. But playing alto recorder in violin clef took a lot more time.

So your hack might not be ideal, but it can help you if you practice it long enough.
On the other hand playing tuned in the lowest register doesn’t sound good in most cases, so learning note names and where they are in different octaves on paper and on the instrument helps more to be able to play a melody in a different octave.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I learned this hack from my first teacher when I was 11 years old playing Euphonium.

The next year my second teacher said just learn to read both clefs, which I did. It’s been 38 years now and I can STILL read both clefs on autopilot on any instrument.

For the longer term, I would recommend learning to read treble clef cold.

1000% agreed.

 

[Opus_Pocus]

I remember first learning tenor clef and later treble clef. As in the way it made my brain feel slow and melty. It was a highly rewarding and satisfying feeling as I gained fluency. I can't recommend enough just sticking with it and learning the clef.

 

[Papageno]

Yes, learning to read fluently treble clef is a very important skills.

When reading stuff written on treble key not specifically for bass, you need to chose the range in a manner that fits well on the bass: usually, I chose to play the C on the first ledger line under the staff as my lowest C (A string), so that the G harmonic is just above the staff.

When music written for bass uses the treble clef, then the G harmonic is on second line (from bottom). You will need to be acustomed to these 2 different ways of reading the treble clef on bass.

 

[Ed S]

OK, I can see that I ought to eventually get better at reading treble. As suggested above, I am able to use the "form" of the music if I have a couple of signposts. As you can see, I wrote a little D and F under the initial phrase - often, that sort of thing is enough. When playing so many melodies, my biggest problem is remembering the first note...

Even when I played piano, I was a very good sight reader, but did not read sheet music as the specific notes. Instead, I saw the notes and they told me "put that finger on this key." Playing the bass I still have a similar deficit. Yes, I can intellectually name the notes I read in bass or treble clef, but when playing, my mind is more like, "Put that finger here on this string."

I hear what you folk say about music sounding better/differently up the fingerboard. But as I stressed, I'm a mostly self-taught 1-4-5 BG thumper trying to stretch myself. My fb could pretty much be cut off a couple of intervals above the heel and that would have little practical effect on me. Once I learn/hear a melody/pattern in 1st-2d position, I can move it up around the heel. But anything above 5th position is pretty much terra incognita for me. Yeah - add it to the list of things I oughta work on...

The main reason I posted this thread was simply that I didn't realize sheet music could be manipulated in this manner. Just impressed me as an interesting - and potentially useful - shortcut, and I wanted to confirm that it works as I believed it did.

 

[brianrost]

I know a lot of the notes are now meaningless as they go WAY BELOW low E.

When we read music notated for bass it’s easy to forget that we are actually playing an octave below what’s written on the staff. Same for guitar. If you read off a piano score, you would end up playing an octave below the pianist’s left hand.

If you were to actually play the melody as written, you'd play the whole thing up an octave. That would take you into thumb position in a few spots (highest note is that A in bar 2).

The main reason I posted this thread was simply that I didn't realize sheet music could be manipulated in this manner.

As others mentioned, it’s easy to do the mind shift needed to read treble clef, which is really the same thing you discovered. Since you play piano you already know how to read it. I usually just scan the part and orient myself before trying to play it.

 

[longfinger]

The main reason I posted this thread was simply that I didn't realize sheet music could be manipulated in this manner. Just impressed me as an interesting - and potentially useful - shortcut, and I wanted to confirm that it works as I believed it did.

That is how the clefs work. Spaced out in thirds. 3 main kinds.
G clefs
C clefs
F clefs

There are 7 clefs "commonly" used.

Well, well, looking this up on wikipedia now, apparently there are 9 clefs! Never heard of "French violin" or "sub bass" before. Also never saw a baritone, made with a C clef. (Only seen the F clef variety before)

Basically, back in the early centuries of printing music, ledger lines were really hard to too, so the solution was to use different clefs differing by a third. Keep using them and you run full circle. The treble and bass clefs are on opposite sides of range but are "right next to each other" using octave equivalence, separated only by a 3rd.

Clef - Wikipedia

That's why your "trick" works.

But really, just learn the treble clef. A more useful "trick" is to play the treble clef melodies in a higher register, so you won't get mixed with bass register and treble clef. Keep the "piano grand staff" register going (except all sounding an octave lower than written.)


Curious, in your sheets, aren't the other instruments playing the melodies? Shouldn't you be doing bass lines that are not written?

 

[Ed S]

Curious, in your sheets, aren't the other instruments playing the melodies? Shouldn't you be doing bass lines that are not written?

These are classical ensemble music for quartet. 2 violins, viola, and I play the cello on bass. No one instrument plays the "melody." Some of the arrangements are quite fun to the extent they spread the juicy bits around among the instruments, so the viola and I are not stuck always just pumping out quarter notes or something.

The latest pieces we've been working on - arrangements of Chaminade's 10 miniatures - I find VERY challenging to work on, as they are often in less common keys and her sense of rhythm and melody is somewhat different than I'm used to. The one I was working on this week was challenging because the cello part had ledger lines going well below the bass staff. So I'm really not good at identifying those notes by sight. And since I normally play the notes on the bass staff in 1/2 to 2d position, I have to transpose either the whole line or just those lowest notes up an octave. This sheet music especially challenges my tiny brain, because it has VERY COMPLETE position and fingering notation - FOR CELLO!

Oh well - I may not be making great music, but hopeully I'm staving off Alzheimer's!

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Two resources that really got my treble reading together on bass are Boardwalkin’ by Hal Robinson and the George Vance progressive repertoire for double bass books. You may not need help with the playing bass part of this, but both books move frequently between bass and treble clefs to the point that it just feels natural. Plus you already read and play piano. So you should have no trouble becoming proficient reading treble clef.

 

[garrett2]

There's also a fair amount of music that moves between bass, alto, and treble. Best to learn to read 'em all! Good for the brain!

 

[DoubleMIDI]

…
The one I was working on this week was challenging because the cello part had ledger lines going well below the bass staff. So I'm really not good at identifying those notes by sight. And since I normally play the notes on the bass staff in 1/2 to 2d position, I have to transpose either the whole line or just those lowest notes up an octave. This sheet music especially challenges my tiny brain, because it has VERY COMPLETE position and fingering notation - FOR CELLO!
…

Use fifth tuning and that position and fingering almost works for you.

So you play anything but the few lowest notes an octave lower than the cello?

BTW, if you had a 5-string with a low B or C or an extension you need to be able to read these low notes.

So practicing reading them even though you need to octave is a good way to get friends with these notes.