I'm playing in the pit for the musical 1776 and one piece goes into treble clef for a few measures. What is written is D, C, B and A below the staff. What pitch do I actually play?
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Double Bass Treble clef notes
- Thread starter tornadobass
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That treble clef D that hangs below the bottom line of the staff, is the same D that is one ledger line above the bass clef staff.
- Aug 1, 2005
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There are modern composers who will write passages in treble clef which they intend to be played "at pitch", or an octave up from what a bassist normally does. They will specifically express this in the part though with text. In this case it almost certainly a copyist oversight.
That's what I was wondering about...is it intended to be played at pitch? Also, there is the word Strong printed over the start of that section...is that different than writing a dynamic mark?
- Jan 24, 2002
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This drives me crazy! For the life of me, I can't see any advantage whatsoever to this system. It only adds another layer of confusion. Most composers don't do it, but maybe 5% do (mostly Germans, in my experience). If they do, it normally only applies to harmonics.
I don't know where the idea started. Older composers like Ligeti or Henze used this system, but they were careful to print 'suono reale' or 'sounding pitch' over the affected notes. Luigi Nono would often write the entire part in sounding pitch (usually marked 'loco') and would add '8vb' if he meant otherwise (I have a whole litany of problems with Nono's notation, but that's another subject).
Some composers today are omitting the 'sounding pitch' instruction entirely on the assumption that we'll understand what they mean. If I try to guess, I usually get it wrong.
So to whoever's teaching composers to write like this: STOP IT! Just write 100% of the part sounding an octave lower and there's no problem.
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"This is as senseless and useless as the old tradition of writing the French horn parts an octave lower than usual when bass clef was employed." - Stuart Sankey
According to Burt Turetzky's book "The Contemporary Contrabass" this is a very old argument. Old editions of Billé are notated this way, and Turetzky refers to the practice as "the old Italian" system.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
According to Burt Turetzky's book "The Contemporary Contrabass" this is a very old argument. Old editions of Billé are notated this way, and Turetzky refers to the practice as "the old Italian" system.
Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.
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I love it when you have a part which goes into tenor clef for like three bars where there wouldn't have been more than two ledger lines had it stayed in bass clef. I have played parts from modern composers and show music with ridiculous and completely unnecessary page turns and clef changes. This is just how things are, though. Like having to stick to 35mph on a straight country road with no traffic and few intersections.
Is the bass part shared with other instruments? A change of clef could be an indication for the bass to be tacet. Like in Baroque music notation for continuo.
And while we are here can we abandon the tenor clef altogether? No need for that. For higher notes just write in the treble clef or use the bass clef with 8va...You can notate everything with that and it makes it much easier and visually clearer.
I feel the same about the tenor clef that nearly everybody uses (except me). But I learned the tuba out of a cornet and trombone Arban methods, then spend some time with the piano, so I'm at home with the treble clef. But not the tenor clef.
Everyone should be have some level of comfort with both the treble and tenor clefs. I assure you that I'm talking to myself about the tenor clef as much as to anyone. I'm old, but I'm gradually learning the tenor clef, hard as it is for me.
I heartily agree Les. And that works fine if you already read the treble clef, but not everyone does. Me? I'd put everything above middle C into the treble clef. But my principal cellist had a difficult time when I offered "The Swan" written out in treble clef, and he knows that piece very well.
I'm assuming this is the passage the OP is referring to:
I'm guessing that the treble clef section is made to be played at pitch, because otherwise there's no reason to write it in treble clef at all given how low it is in the treble clef staff.
I'm guessing that the treble clef section is made to be played at pitch, because otherwise there's no reason to write it in treble clef at all given how low it is in the treble clef staff.
You know what, I think it does go into suono reale there. I think that it goes into Suono Reale at this point not just because of the treble clef, but also because of the last bar of treble clef moving into the next bar of bass clef. If one looks at it 8vb, then you have a jump of a 7th from open G to the F above it. If you use Suono reale, then you have a moving line mostly by step and half step.
food for thought, I guess. Whatever the answer is (maybe look at the score), the writing is definitely atypical.
But then, what would we talk about here on TB?
Seriously though, if the score looks the same as the bass part, I also would assume it's actual pitch based in the line.
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I get the feeling that composers and copyists were taught to avoid treble clef for the cellos and basses up until maybe the 1960s. They were probably told that bassist couldn't read treble, and cellists would also struggle, which isn't completely false. With tenor you remove two ledger lines above, which makes things cleaner for almost all orchestral bass parts, but naturally it doesn't help much for a lot of solo rep. There is a dissonance in many aspects of life in which how we are taught to do something conflicts with what would seem to make the most sense. When you are getting paid to do something, the decision is often not yours to make, no matter how smart you are, and dumb your boss, customer, principal, conductor, etc. is.
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I could also do without tenor clef. In practical terms, it essentially serves no useful function. If the goal is to avoid ledger lines, it's almost always better to switch between bass and treble.
The only exception I can imagine is when you have many wide intervals which all fit neatly into a tenor range, such as jumps between open strings and fourth position. In this case, tenor clef is the cleanest notation but not necessarily the easiest to read for many players. Switching between treble and bass clefs for every note looks incredibly messy, while using just one necessitates an inordinate number of ledger lines. The alternative is to use a two-staff "piano" system utilizing both treble and bass simultaneously, but this is uncommon and also difficult to read, and perhaps confusing, for most players.
Try to remember that the vast majority of composers are trying to notate their music in the easiest way they can. They make an effort to stick to standard or traditional systems whenever possible. It's only confusing because we, as a group, can't decide for ourselves what the best solution should be. Those of us fluent with tenor clef would often prefer to read tenor clef when it makes sense to have it.
The only exception I can imagine is when you have many wide intervals which all fit neatly into a tenor range, such as jumps between open strings and fourth position. In this case, tenor clef is the cleanest notation but not necessarily the easiest to read for many players. Switching between treble and bass clefs for every note looks incredibly messy, while using just one necessitates an inordinate number of ledger lines. The alternative is to use a two-staff "piano" system utilizing both treble and bass simultaneously, but this is uncommon and also difficult to read, and perhaps confusing, for most players.
Try to remember that the vast majority of composers are trying to notate their music in the easiest way they can. They make an effort to stick to standard or traditional systems whenever possible. It's only confusing because we, as a group, can't decide for ourselves what the best solution should be. Those of us fluent with tenor clef would often prefer to read tenor clef when it makes sense to have it.
