The recent request and comments on refitting a neck on a wrecked bass (maybe I am over simplifying) seems to have brought a firestorm of criticism for someone un-tactfully trying diy to save the costs of fixing a bass. It strikes me that the issues contained in that mild incivility (from my point of view) are somewhat mirrored in our discusussions of actually playing the bass. To me, learning to play the bass musically needs to start out with a rational "thinking" approach to how to play. But... once having paid one's dues in tedious scales, exercises, tonal analysis, metrenome studies, harmonic studies et al, rational analysis takes too long to playbass well, and, in some way gracefully, mindlessly. The mental process of learning and doing are (at least in my case) entirely different. I have found that in my bringing back to life a few bass wrecks, intuition, feel, became the main engines of sucess, after (of course) the simple woodcrafting. It takes a long time to gain the sense of materials etc. for anyone to become skilled at fixing a bass. It is understandable to me that some one with basic (or even exceptional) skills with hand tools would think they are capable of fixing what needs fixing. But...experience with many different "fixes" provide the sensitivity to what the bass needs. I blather on, but I think that learning to play bass, and playing bass musically are totally different mental systems. You absolutely need the learning, but the doing is, in some ways, mindless (and wonderful)
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Double Bass trying not to throw gas on the fire...
- Thread starter notabene
- Start date
It was a tough thread. I've looked over my posts there quite a few times and have thought there might have been better ways of saying what I said, or that it might have been better just not to have said anything at all. I do tend to write a lot of posts here in TB/DB that never see the light of day, but for some reason I let my posts stay in that thread. I do think that most of the actual "technical" comments to the OP from other participants were at least honest, and if I had been the OP there, I would have appreciated those comments and the spirit they were presented with. But that said, while it was interesting, it was still a very difficult thread.
Your parallel with learning to play double bass is equally interesting, maybe even more so to me having just started playing in the last 7 years. People offering learning advice here do also tend to be honest. Sometimes that hurts, but maybe that's a good thing for someone starting out, to help emphasize how important some things are. In my meager double bass trail so far, it's been nice to be surrounded by real experts who explain things, often things that relate directly to their experience. Most of the time for me it has been gentle and encouraging; sometimes it's been at least blunt, but I don't think that has hurt me at all. Granted I don't execute every advice, but I do learn from every advice and it broadens my double bass knowledge, hopefully to someday turn into some real bits of double bass wisdom that might also be helpful to someone else. Ultimately I haven't given up working on double bass, and I'm also still here in TB/DB, and glad of both.
Thanks for sharing the thought provoking observations!
Now that you mention it, we have the same two personality types in the cultures of both musicians and craftsmen when it comes to DIY. In both cases there's the first type that asks "help me figure this out" and responds "here's how we do it and why", and the second type that says "don't tell me what to do" and "this is too hard for you."
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Accepting that we don’t know what we don’t know is essential if we are to ever know it.
Now, one can take the position that his/her approach is just to:
1) be entirely self taught
2) occasionally ask questions and seek guidance as issues arise
3) be a sponge/humbly take on the role of student and all of the responsibilities that entails.
Where the subject of that thread fits, I really can’t say. However, I don’t accept that anyone is entitled to the knowledge that someone has gained through hard work and experience, without conditions.
It may just be the nature of Internet forums like this that people see it as an extension of ‘Google it’ but I don’t think many people would call or walk into a shop and ask how to do something.
I seem to remember that the Luthier sub forum was created for people actively engaged in DB repair, but I may be mistaken.
Now, one can take the position that his/her approach is just to:
1) be entirely self taught
2) occasionally ask questions and seek guidance as issues arise
3) be a sponge/humbly take on the role of student and all of the responsibilities that entails.
Where the subject of that thread fits, I really can’t say. However, I don’t accept that anyone is entitled to the knowledge that someone has gained through hard work and experience, without conditions.
It may just be the nature of Internet forums like this that people see it as an extension of ‘Google it’ but I don’t think many people would call or walk into a shop and ask how to do something.
I seem to remember that the Luthier sub forum was created for people actively engaged in DB repair, but I may be mistaken.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Information exchanged on Internet forums like this comes with issues that differ from information exchanged one on one/face to face.
For example, I recently had a student bring in an old Kay with a lot of problems. He paid very little and couldn’t afford the cost to restore it properly. He explained that his father has the tools and experience to do the work so we sat down and discussed a plan for he and his dad to take it on. This is a bass that wouldn’t have survived otherwise so why not?
This was a voluntary exchange of information between two individuals: teacher to student.
The internet doesn’t allow that. It’s a free for all. Sure, there is the ability to private message but it’s still not the same.
For example, I recently had a student bring in an old Kay with a lot of problems. He paid very little and couldn’t afford the cost to restore it properly. He explained that his father has the tools and experience to do the work so we sat down and discussed a plan for he and his dad to take it on. This is a bass that wouldn’t have survived otherwise so why not?
This was a voluntary exchange of information between two individuals: teacher to student.
The internet doesn’t allow that. It’s a free for all. Sure, there is the ability to private message but it’s still not the same.
In similar fashion, I have coached several individuals through their first instrument build. Established makers (some, not all) were pretty kind when I was starting out, and I try to pass that on to others.
But I feel free to back away, when someone is rude or demanding, or claims that I’m “doing it wrong, because YouTube…” (No problem! Do it their way!)
My daughter had a friend who said he was “going to learn violin making.” She said, “Oh, you ought to talk to my dad!”
He replied, “No, I want to learn to do it right!” (Okaaaay…)
He went out and bought a bunch of stuff, never got off the ground with it, and finally (a year or so later) she came home with two large grocery bags full of wood, tools, glue and varnish. He had changed his mind and sent all the stuff home with her: “Give this to your dad! I’m never gonna use it!”
So, I used the wood…built a nice five string fiddle…and gave the rest of the stuff to other beginning luthiers.
But I feel free to back away, when someone is rude or demanding, or claims that I’m “doing it wrong, because YouTube…” (No problem! Do it their way!)
My daughter had a friend who said he was “going to learn violin making.” She said, “Oh, you ought to talk to my dad!”
He replied, “No, I want to learn to do it right!” (Okaaaay…)
He went out and bought a bunch of stuff, never got off the ground with it, and finally (a year or so later) she came home with two large grocery bags full of wood, tools, glue and varnish. He had changed his mind and sent all the stuff home with her: “Give this to your dad! I’m never gonna use it!”
So, I used the wood…built a nice five string fiddle…and gave the rest of the stuff to other beginning luthiers.
I didn't see the referenced thread, but I agree with Greg's points here. Another challenge present in attempting to learn skills and knowledge from enthusiast forums, and the interent in general, is the increasing difficulty in simply determining who knows what they're talking about.
There's a wide range of folks from those who write and communicate in a very articulate, learned fashion to those who can barely construct a sentence or spell.... and everything in between. There's a similar wide range of those with truly exceptional, in-depth knowledge and experience within the subject at hand, to those who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and state barely justifiable opinions as absolute fact.... and everything in between. To further complicate the matter, those two "ranges" don't always intersect or follow each other; some gifted writers/communicators may sound like they are experts, but are far from it. Likewise, there are some folks who don't seem to be able to write or communicate well at all (or simply don't care to) who really ARE extremely knowledgeable and experienced.
Especially for folks getting started in whatever the subject area is, it can be REALLY hard to separate the good info from the not-so-good or even harmful "info." I've seen the same thing in sailing forums, audio forums, car-enthusiast forums, trumpet-forums, airplane pilot forums (how scary is THAT?!?), and yes, this bass forum.
I try very hard to make sure that any statements I make or advice I give is either proven and factual, or, if not, state that it's based mainly upon my opinion or a limited experience. There's no shame in admitting ignorance, either, and I'm not afraid to do that. There's certainly no need to belittle anyone for wanting to learn stuff.
There's a wide range of folks from those who write and communicate in a very articulate, learned fashion to those who can barely construct a sentence or spell.... and everything in between. There's a similar wide range of those with truly exceptional, in-depth knowledge and experience within the subject at hand, to those who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and state barely justifiable opinions as absolute fact.... and everything in between. To further complicate the matter, those two "ranges" don't always intersect or follow each other; some gifted writers/communicators may sound like they are experts, but are far from it. Likewise, there are some folks who don't seem to be able to write or communicate well at all (or simply don't care to) who really ARE extremely knowledgeable and experienced.
Especially for folks getting started in whatever the subject area is, it can be REALLY hard to separate the good info from the not-so-good or even harmful "info." I've seen the same thing in sailing forums, audio forums, car-enthusiast forums, trumpet-forums, airplane pilot forums (how scary is THAT?!?), and yes, this bass forum.
I try very hard to make sure that any statements I make or advice I give is either proven and factual, or, if not, state that it's based mainly upon my opinion or a limited experience. There's no shame in admitting ignorance, either, and I'm not afraid to do that. There's certainly no need to belittle anyone for wanting to learn stuff.
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Technical work (say, building or doing serious repairs on a fiddle) has a mental component and a physical component. Just like with music, both of these have to be developed AND PRACTICED.
You can read all you want about how to do this or that, but until you are actually familiar with how the wood behaves when you bite into it with the plane, you don't KNOW. That aspect of it is physical, just like you can read all about how to bow a low E on a bass, but you don't KNOW until you have muscle memory of how to do it.
Too many people assume that a set of facts or principles is all they need to do technical work, and they ignore how very important it is to have that feel for the materials and processes. So, for example, in my own case, I have machined lots of metals, aluminum, steel, brass, etc. I have a REAL GOOD expectation of how each machining process I might undertake will go. I have never used hot hide glue. While I can read up on temperature and open time and all that, if I find myself needing to do a job with hot hide glue, you can bet I'll be buying the stuff, getting some scrap wood of the same species, and making a bunch of test joints before I take on the actual job. I need the feel of it in my fingers, the sight of it, the smell, the sense of "I still have some time" versus "gotta clamp it NOW" - I don't have any of that, simply because I've never done it. I could read about hot hide glue joints for two weeks and I still won't have that knowledge. The two weeks' reading will help - it'll help a LOT - by giving me an intellectual understanding of what I'm doing, but it's not KNOWLEDGE.
It's kind of like music - especially improvisation - you can learn a bunch of chord-scale relationships and do all kinds of theoretical analysis, but when the head stops and you have to make a solo, it's the KNOWLEDGE of how the tune goes and what sounds good and what doesn't that you need. The only way to get it is to try stuff. That's why sometimes when newbies ask questions the only answer I can give them is "just play the tune". Or in the immortal words of Ledward Kaapana - "Jus' Press!"
You can read all you want about how to do this or that, but until you are actually familiar with how the wood behaves when you bite into it with the plane, you don't KNOW. That aspect of it is physical, just like you can read all about how to bow a low E on a bass, but you don't KNOW until you have muscle memory of how to do it.
Too many people assume that a set of facts or principles is all they need to do technical work, and they ignore how very important it is to have that feel for the materials and processes. So, for example, in my own case, I have machined lots of metals, aluminum, steel, brass, etc. I have a REAL GOOD expectation of how each machining process I might undertake will go. I have never used hot hide glue. While I can read up on temperature and open time and all that, if I find myself needing to do a job with hot hide glue, you can bet I'll be buying the stuff, getting some scrap wood of the same species, and making a bunch of test joints before I take on the actual job. I need the feel of it in my fingers, the sight of it, the smell, the sense of "I still have some time" versus "gotta clamp it NOW" - I don't have any of that, simply because I've never done it. I could read about hot hide glue joints for two weeks and I still won't have that knowledge. The two weeks' reading will help - it'll help a LOT - by giving me an intellectual understanding of what I'm doing, but it's not KNOWLEDGE.
It's kind of like music - especially improvisation - you can learn a bunch of chord-scale relationships and do all kinds of theoretical analysis, but when the head stops and you have to make a solo, it's the KNOWLEDGE of how the tune goes and what sounds good and what doesn't that you need. The only way to get it is to try stuff. That's why sometimes when newbies ask questions the only answer I can give them is "just play the tune". Or in the immortal words of Ledward Kaapana - "Jus' Press!"
To follow up, there's another aspect of not knowing what one doesn't know, and it's particularly present on the internet, and that's when someone who clearly doesn't know what they don't know posts a specific question seeking one specific answer - and gets a bunch of additional information. What the respondents are doing is pointing out "hey, there's a LOT more to this than your question and here's some of it" - but a very large fraction of the time the person who posted the inquiry gets offended and usually YAGEs.
I think part of "Being a Human 101" should be this lesson:
When you think you're asking for INFORMATION and you get something that seems peripheral or not responsive, you may well be receiving WISDOM. Don't get the two confused.
The student once asked the master "Does a dog have Buddha-nature?" The master answered "Mu".
In this case, the student asks for information - YES or NO. The master answers the question the student doesn't know to ask, which is "does my question even mean anything?"
When someone answers the question you didn't know to ask, that's when you really need to pay attention.
I think part of "Being a Human 101" should be this lesson:
When you think you're asking for INFORMATION and you get something that seems peripheral or not responsive, you may well be receiving WISDOM. Don't get the two confused.
The student once asked the master "Does a dog have Buddha-nature?" The master answered "Mu".
In this case, the student asks for information - YES or NO. The master answers the question the student doesn't know to ask, which is "does my question even mean anything?"
When someone answers the question you didn't know to ask, that's when you really need to pay attention.
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
I learned a lot by watching/stealing from others whom I respected. Many things were passed to me in a very detailed and methodical manner; do it EXACTLY this way and don’t ever vary from it.
Most of my practices are a mix of things adapted to achieve respectable results. Basses are different enough from other instruments in the violin family that methods and tools must be adapted by the person actually elbow deep in a particular instrument. After several years stealing from others and five years on my own on a full time basis I have a few things figured out but much more to learn. There are luthiers on this form with much more experience, and many who have sadly left. If a newbie drops in and senses that people with some experience feel like they are in an elite club, they are partially correct. That experience was often hard to come by and it should be valued when it is passed along. That is all.
Most of my practices are a mix of things adapted to achieve respectable results. Basses are different enough from other instruments in the violin family that methods and tools must be adapted by the person actually elbow deep in a particular instrument. After several years stealing from others and five years on my own on a full time basis I have a few things figured out but much more to learn. There are luthiers on this form with much more experience, and many who have sadly left. If a newbie drops in and senses that people with some experience feel like they are in an elite club, they are partially correct. That experience was often hard to come by and it should be valued when it is passed along. That is all.
I especially appreciate the comments about the terse nature of text communication.
When I first started my education and then my career in computer programming and analysis in the late 1970s, my first learning contacts were on what would now be considered a very very immature Internet. I was a very rare student for that time, I actually compiled programming assignments for class online instead of on a local computer, because local computer access was so limited with a large student base. Of course this was through a very slow modem to a service that no longer exists today, or even 25 years ago, but I felt lucky to have the resources available at home instead of waiting in line in a computer lab, so slowness wasn't really an issue.
Back in those days it was common Internet knowledge among anyone online that, because of very limited bandwidth, discussions were always going to be more terse than face to face. We are talking about a text-based, mostly 300 baud Internet here, bandwidth was expensive and words were expensive. There were few if any graphics, icons or emoticons were rare, and any that did exist were either text or kludgy keyboard typed character based combinations -- the word emoji hadn't even been coined yet. And people exercised extreme care to try not to say things in a way that might insult or insinuate.
Careful text message practices became a part of the science that I learned then. While I did witness a few serious accidental disagreements, they were very rare because everyone knew not only that it was hard to write something without accidentally sounding bad, but it was also hard to read something without taking accidental offense. There was sense of humility among all of us, the point being that if we wanted Internet communication to work, we had to assume that words were not intended to attack, and if it seemed they were, it was accidental.
The world has changed a lot since then. It seems that the posts in the thread we're talking about were pretty clearly not accidental. And here we are trying to be introspective online, which is often really pretty hard to do even face to face. While I know it isn't completely possible, at least for me it would be nice to go back to those old days related to text communications, where if I want this thing to work, along with being careful what I write, I also need to be careful how I read.
When I first started my education and then my career in computer programming and analysis in the late 1970s, my first learning contacts were on what would now be considered a very very immature Internet. I was a very rare student for that time, I actually compiled programming assignments for class online instead of on a local computer, because local computer access was so limited with a large student base. Of course this was through a very slow modem to a service that no longer exists today, or even 25 years ago, but I felt lucky to have the resources available at home instead of waiting in line in a computer lab, so slowness wasn't really an issue.
Back in those days it was common Internet knowledge among anyone online that, because of very limited bandwidth, discussions were always going to be more terse than face to face. We are talking about a text-based, mostly 300 baud Internet here, bandwidth was expensive and words were expensive. There were few if any graphics, icons or emoticons were rare, and any that did exist were either text or kludgy keyboard typed character based combinations -- the word emoji hadn't even been coined yet. And people exercised extreme care to try not to say things in a way that might insult or insinuate.
Careful text message practices became a part of the science that I learned then. While I did witness a few serious accidental disagreements, they were very rare because everyone knew not only that it was hard to write something without accidentally sounding bad, but it was also hard to read something without taking accidental offense. There was sense of humility among all of us, the point being that if we wanted Internet communication to work, we had to assume that words were not intended to attack, and if it seemed they were, it was accidental.
The world has changed a lot since then. It seems that the posts in the thread we're talking about were pretty clearly not accidental. And here we are trying to be introspective online, which is often really pretty hard to do even face to face. While I know it isn't completely possible, at least for me it would be nice to go back to those old days related to text communications, where if I want this thing to work, along with being careful what I write, I also need to be careful how I read.
Like @dhergert I've been at this online-communication thing for a long time, particularly involved in online communities since before the intertubes. One thing I learned from hard experience is that once a community passes the 200-member threshold, no matter how well it worked before that, increasing anonymity leads members to be less empathetic with others they don't know, and an in-group/out-group dynamic develops separating established members from newbies. In-group members have greater ease with one another and often a shared jargon; newbies easily read that as elitist or exclusionary, and react negatively. I remember being involved in many meta-discussions about this in the early years, looking for ways to mitigate it and keep threads from blowing up over perceived slights, and about the only useful approach is to find ways to be more 'real' with one another — real names rather than anonymous handles, head shots rather than avatars, etc.
That thread was a master class in how to not ask for advice.
Years ago I was lucky enough to find myself with a not-terribly-expensive problem on my hands, a stable income, and free mentorship from people here and other places who respected the apprenticeship system and were willing to indulge my questions because why not?
Can’t say I’ve ever had much interest in money, personally, so that experience was a teachable moment and a lesson about the importance of paying your debts forward.
But bigfooting and insulting people for no good reason never works out well.
Years ago I was lucky enough to find myself with a not-terribly-expensive problem on my hands, a stable income, and free mentorship from people here and other places who respected the apprenticeship system and were willing to indulge my questions because why not?
Can’t say I’ve ever had much interest in money, personally, so that experience was a teachable moment and a lesson about the importance of paying your debts forward.
But bigfooting and insulting people for no good reason never works out well.
As I noted, it was a classic example of someone not knowing what he doesn't know. Add to that the arrogance of assuming that all he needs is ONE answer to ONE question, not an extensive course in what he doesn't know. And then add to that the internet phenomenon of getting all pi$$y with anyone who attempts to point out that giving ONE answer to ONE question will in fact not solve the problem, will actually make the problem worse, and the internet phenomenon of jumping directly to personal abuse and YAGEing.
I see a ton of this in internet forums. I think it's easier to insult people you're not looking at in person. It's a little tougher, I think, to walk into the repair shop and tell the 60 year old guy with gnarled hands and leather apron, sitting at the shaving-covered bench in front of the racks of planes and specialized tools, that he doesn't know what he's talking about and needs to just cough up the answer to the ONE question, right NOW. That's a way to get yourself bounced out on your ear, posthaste. But on the internet it's easier to insult and harder to experience the consequences.
"Hey, gimme a fish!"
"Son, what you need is to learn how to fish. Here's a rod, line, and a hook, let's go down to the stream and dig up some worms, then I'll teach you how to catch them, clean them, cook them, and you'll never need be hungry again."
"NOOO! GIMME FISH!! GIMME FISH!! GIMME FISH!!"
Greg Clinkingbeard
Commercial User
Well said. The only thing I would add is that the person seeking the answer isn’t entitled to it, but can probably get it with the right approach.
Approach 1)
‘I have never done anything like this, and realize that it may be more difficult than I can possibly see at this point. However, I have some woodworking experience and know how to use hide glue and properly fit this joint. What I don’t know is how to achieve the best playability and bridge height. If anyone can help me, I would really appreciate it’.
Approach 2)
??
Ah yes, a good point.
Just because you ask a question on the internet, that does not entitle you to an answer.
You know, I think we need to send a substantial fraction of people today back to "Being a Human Being 101" training. Preferably taught by a patient but firm grandmother, a father with a hard hand, and a mother with high expectations. Extra credit courses are taught by Master Gunnery Sergeants.
Man -- I sure do miss my dad when I read threads like this. He died at 61yo and I hadn't yet begun to absorb the wisdom he had to offer me.
As expected, nothing that someone without tools, skills, and a brain could not do. Not 100 percent complete as I only have a couple hours a week most to work on it. Still glad I didn't waste 2k to have someone else do it. Reading over all these posts is sad. Hate to break it you guys but fixing a bass is not rocket science. Found a book off Amazon with dimensional measurements. Chiseled/sanded out all the old crap out of neck joint. Measured all parts of joint and cut/glued shims inside. Cut length of neck to fit short ribbed bass. Carefully dovetail sawed the sides of neck to fit the nice and clean new neck joint. (This took a few trieas I wanted a perfect fit, I am especially proud of this part). Glued fingerboard on, as well as the nut, which I hand made. Reshaped the neck with spokeshave and rasp to desired feel. Drilled out peg box holes and installed tuning pegs from my old neck. Keep you guys posted, thanks for all the love a support from the guild.