Twin Bill / Joint Venture - Our Venue - Pay To Play ?

ArtechnikA

ArtechnikA

I endorsed a check once...
Feb 24, 2013
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#1
I'm a member of an Americana originals project.
You think Metal guys have a problem getting the right demographic and venue? Try Americana originals...

So one thought is just to book a local community theater and produce our own show.
As we're doing originals, we don't even have to care if the venue has a BMI/ASCAP license.
But we're still iffy on being able to attract a big enough crowd to cover the theater rental cost.
We've talked about splitting the venue rental cost with another act - and then splitting the take.
"Co-producers."

If you're them, how is this not "pay to play" ?

Do we front the whole rental cost, but tell them their take only begins after their half of the rental is covered ?

My idea is to be up-front and let them know that they're partners in a joint venture. If they don't want to 'co-produce' the event and accept some of the risk, they don't have to -- but we'll either find another partner who will, or they can accept that their take of the door starts when their half of the venue rental is covered.

-We- are "paying to play" because we're renting the venue. How is it different if we take on a partner ?
 
#4
Yes this is not pay to play, you are actually producing and promoting a show. As for the arrangement with another group, i think you can attack is as a partnership where each party invests the same amount of money and gets even share of profit/loss. Or your band can handle the sole investment and pay a flat rate to the other band for their services. Your band then takes full share of profit/loss, and the other band is simply playing for a flat fee with no added incentive bonus.

I couldn't tell you which route is better as it would require some assumptions and forecasting as to how the financials would end up. Break out an spreadsheet and run both scenarios to see how your band fares. You want the one that minimizes risk and maximizes profit.
 
#5
Share the risks and split the rewards is a joint venture. That's not pay to play.

Many moons ago up in the Boston area in the '70s one of my old bands used to go in with a few other originals bands to put together showcase mini-festivals. It worked out pretty well and actually made us a little money. Not a lot. But it was good exposure. And at least we never lost money doing it. So it's definitely doable.

Suggestion: keep the arrangenents simple. Everbody buys in up frront. I wouldn't get fancy with things like "if you can't front the cash, it'll be deducted after the show." That's straying into pay to play territory. For a joint venture it has to be everyone equally sharing the risks - and equally splitting the take. Otherwise it can get more complicated than it's worth unless you have actual management handling the arrangements.

Trust me on this one. Been there. Keep the math and the splits simple. Very simple.
 
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#7
For almost 8 years I was in two diffrent Americana originals bands.We had all the gigs us working guys could handle . I found booking us was never a real problem.
I could be your market. Do some homework and network with bands like yours. I think the doors will open in time.
 
#8
bassbully said:
We had all the gigs us working guys could handle . I found booking us was never a real problem.
Click to expand...
'Blimp City' is Akron ? Location is a factor. Philadelphia is awash with HiPhop, punk, grunge, sludge, and doom - Americana/folk not so much. Different story in the middle of the country, I am told.

Appreciate all the responses...

And it raises additional questions, probably better served in a separate thread (surprised I haven't seen it covered already...): What's the mechanics of online ticket sales these days ? About 15 years ago I promoted an event (niche automotive crowd) and it was pretty easy to make a web form with payment through PayPal. Doubt it's that easy these days...
 
#9
ArtechnikA said:
'Blimp City' is Akron ? Location is a factor. Philadelphia is awash with HiPhop, punk, grunge, sludge, and doom - Americana/folk not so much. Different story in the middle of the country, I am told.

Appreciate all the responses...

And it raises additional questions, probably better served in a separate thread (surprised I haven't seen it covered already...): What's the mechanics of online ticket sales these days ? About 15 years ago I promoted an event (niche automotive crowd) and it was pretty easy to make a web form with payment through PayPal. Doubt it's that easy these days...
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: Yes, Demographics tell allot. We had to go north to find gigs and travel around some. It's a hard market when you do originals anywhere. My area is known as Metaltown all the bands are metal. I hope you can find some opportunities where you are. Try festivals ,coffee houses small community stages. Good luck.
 
#10
On some level EVERY gig that we all play is in effect a P2P gig. We devote a substantial amount of time learning, rehearsing and arranging tunes to play, coordinating schedules and wardrobes, promoting and networking to get folks to come to shows so we can do it all over again. Here you've just cut out the middleman (the bar) which theoretically would have handled some aspects of making a live show successful (which would reduce your investment of time and energy).

I'd agree with others that your best bet to pull this off is to "strongly encourage" or require other bands to invest an amount into the expenses of this show beforehand. If one of four bands doesn't want to invest a full 25% of the costs in the event then they can invest whatever they'd like but will be taking the worst time slot and have the shortest set. The nice thing about everyone being equally invested is that everyone invested will have an interest in making this gig as profitable as possible. As long as you have a way to maintain transparency and accountability on the financial side of this then it sounds like a great deal for other bands.
 
#11
ArtechnikA said:
I'm a member of an Americana originals project.
You think Metal guys have a problem getting the right demographic and venue? Try Americana originals...

So one thought is just to book a local community theater and produce our own show.
As we're doing originals, we don't even have to care if the venue has a BMI/ASCAP license.
But we're still iffy on being able to attract a big enough crowd to cover the theater rental cost.
We've talked about splitting the venue rental cost with another act - and then splitting the take.
"Co-producers."

If you're them, how is this not "pay to play" ?

Do we front the whole rental cost, but tell them their take only begins after their half of the rental is covered ?

My idea is to be up-front and let them know that they're partners in a joint venture. If they don't want to 'co-produce' the event and accept some of the risk, they don't have to -- but we'll either find another partner who will, or they can accept that their take of the door starts when their half of the venue rental is covered.

-We- are "paying to play" because we're renting the venue. How is it different if we take on a partner ?
Click to expand...

Independent bands have been doing this forever, regardless of genre. I was involved in a lot of stuff like this in my punk kid days. The key to the whole thing is whether you can draw an audience. In general, you want to team up with other groups that can draw as well (even if they aren't that good). You have to give a good amount of thought on how much you are willing to pay up front for a venue rental, versus how much you think you can get back at the door. Getting asses in the seats is going to be the most important variable.

Splitting the take is pretty standard. Be careful how many you people you want to involve in the "production" aspect. If you organize the show, then my advice is that you also handle the financial arrangements. Keep reasonable records and receipts to show the other bands exactly what came in, and exactly what bills had to be paid. The average musician isn't usually the investment banker type if you catch my drift (especially drummers). It could be difficult getting other bands to buy in up front on rental costs. Original bands are always broke to begin with.

Sound setup will also be important. You'll want someone who can at least help set up and mix depending on how many bands play. If you have your own PA and someone willing to be the sound guy, you will save on costs.

A lot of places will require you to get insurance. It's usually pretty cheap, but it is another expense to be considered. Even if they don't require it, you probably want something in place just in case. There is always at least one meat head at a show willing to break something for no good reason.

Plan for merch areas if the bands have merch. Bands keep all their own merch money. That shouldn't go into the pot for expenses.

BTW this isn't pay to play. If you take on a task like this, you've just become a show promoter/production company. It just so happens that your band is part of the equation. Like I said, bands have been doing this forever. It's more work, but it's your baby and your music. You just have to plan it well, and know that you're taking a calculated risk on being able to pay everyone.
 
#12
been in the business all my life: promoting and producing is not P2P! it's risk, of course, but it's quite different from those P2P gigs where some TB members pay for promises just to be seen. but there's no risk involved with P2P --- except maybe ego diminution.

promotion is it's own art and craft: lots of work which has little to do with the actual music, and then the risk factor: will anyone show up... at profit levels? in promoting: sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you just learn how to do it better the next time, and sometimes you decide you don't want to be a promoter. but there is some type of an expense, always, to find out. modestly successful promotions can give you a return, however, and you can get more than money from an 'effort-ful' promotion

the deal you make with the other act: either way: split everything 50/50, expenses and income, or split the gate after expenses. it seems to me that your relationship with the other act, and their 'tolerances' will dictate the actual deal you make with them. once you set up 'the deal', just make sure you are prepared to give a full accounting of the business for the promotion. keep good records!

the fact that your act and the other act will have to get the word out and maybe sell tickets: is not P2P! it's a joint venture or partnership, which exist in part, to minimize risk.
 
#14
Tony B. Filthy said:
Try either the Grape Room or Dawson Street Pub in Manayunk.
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I think we're already working on the Grape Room. I'll forward the Dawson Street Pub suggestion to the BL.
Did a site survey on a little community theater close to home.
$200 for a 77-seat space; not too bad. (The 120-seat 'Main Room' is $400...)
As they have no BMI/ASCAP performance license it would work for the originals project but be problematic for the covers bands... I know 1-time licenses are available but I'd have to investigate...

Still working on convincing the BL there is no market for Americana in downtown Philadelphia, which has been The Big City for 350 years. We need to get into the outlying areas...
 
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#15
ArtechnikA said:
$200 for a 77-seat space; not too bad. (The 120-seat 'Main Room' is $400...)
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm missing something, but those both seem pretty high compared to what I've seen around Boston. Are you specifically trying to do a "nicer" theater-type room (with seats)? Because otherwise I'd guess you could find a ~75 capacity bar with a room fee way lower than $200, or get a 250+ capacity room for around $400.

Unless Philly is very different from Boston, which might be the case I guess!
 
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