Twin Bose L1 positioning onstage.

[Sarah Kelly]

I am not a tech but know what I need to. I am not any sort of sound technician. I sing, play bass, and various strings in a fairly loud Brit folk/ Americana band. Some songs are loud and punchy, some very acoustic. With The L1s behind us ( there are 4 including a drummer I am nearly vomitting with the noise. My ears are sensitive. I like them more at the side and "crossing" the audience. This means that picking up the bass onstage is hard and the drummer cannot hear the mix. Has ANYONE worked out a way to incorporate an onstage monitor or 2 so that the speakers are NOT behind the band?

 

[JimChjones]

What have you tried? Any kind of ear protection? In ear monitoring occurs as a possibility to help out. The L1 system seems rather idiosyncratic (no surprise), generic advice from folks like me is going to be of very limited value. Seems to me though if volume is affecting you this much what about more sensitive members of the audience?

 

[Sarah Kelly]

What have you tried? Any kind of ear protection? In ear monitoring occurs as a possibility to help out. The L1 system seems rather idiosyncratic (no surprise), generic advice from folks like me is going to be of very limited value. Seems to me though if volume is affecting you this much what about more sensitive members of the audience?

Jim, bless you. Yep. we always ask the audience. Luckily we have a good manager who is also good with trimming the sound out front as required, using an i-pad mixing desk. Tried ear plugs that protect from extreme noise but singing is a challenge especially blending in harmonies. We were on our way back in the van from a gig, this morning, after last night and stopped off to chat about this. We have had the L1's behind us but are going to try one behind, stage left and one laterally, stage right (my side...HA!) panned at a converging angle to cover the audience. Gonna try to include a small bass blackstar amp to keep the drummer and me in touch with the bass more. Let's see what that does. Lol. Thank you so much. I was wondering whether anyone out there has used these L1 stick systems with a supplementary stage monitor set up and if so, how. Thank you for getting back to me. You star.

 

[Redbrangus]

To clarify, previously have you been running the bass solely through the Bose PA? Then yes, using a small bass amp is bound to help.

 

[Sarah Kelly]

To clarify, previously have you been running the bass solely through the Bose PA? Then yes, using a small bass amp is bound to help.

Perfect. Thank you. That is encouraging!

 

[agedhorse]

The whole point of the Bose system is to act as both FOH and monitor. If this is too loud, I would suggest starting with mild attenuation hearing protection first.

Otherwise, a more conventional deployment left and right down stage plus either conventional wedge monitoring or IEM monitoring might work better for you. Adding a bass amp might be helpful in any of these approaches.

 

[Sarah Kelly]

Thank you aged horse. Tried the attenuated hearing protection but I find it hard to function cohesively with thr band whilst wearing these. BUT I am quite encouraged that people think a little bass amp might help and then push the L1's forward. Thank you fer this agedhorse. Coolio.

 

[JimChjones]

I think if you haven't already bought something I'd be inclined to see if I could borrow something and see how it works out. This forum tends to advise what seems to me huge amps, but looking at your band web site I should have thought that you need nothing extreme. I would tend to think 30W would be plenty for you, although the 30W Blackstar has a very small speaker, and the area of speaker(s) is at least as important as power rating. The most important thing, I submit, will be getting the amp raised or angled so its pointing as much as possible at you and the drummer's ears. There's no point in deafening your ankles!

 

[Sarah Kelly]

I think if you haven't already bought something I'd be inclined to see if I could borrow something and see how it works out. This forum tends to advise what seems to me huge amps, but looking at your band web site I should have thought that you need nothing extreme. I would tend to think 30W would be plenty for you, although the 30W Blackstar has a very small speaker, and the area of speaker(s) is at least as important as power rating. The most important thing, I submit, will be getting the amp raised or angled so its pointing as much as possible at you and the drummer's ears. There's no point in deafening your ankles!

Yep, my husband is handy and can eaily make a sloped stand. The Blackstar Bass in the Uk at least, comes as a pair so that will help spread the sound too. Thank you for going to such a huge amount of trouble.

 

[JimChjones]

Comes as a pair - do you mean the Blackstar Fly 3 Bass? Are you aware how small they are? I suppose you could try putting them on mic stands as close up and personal monitors, but I would have grave doubts about how useful they would be on a live stage. I was thinking more in terms of their Unity range.

 

[GregT]

I've been running a Bose L1 Model 2 with a B2 Sub for years and the absolute best way to run it is beside you, not behind you. Since they put out sound at about 180 degrees, you can angle it just slightly, slightly in toward the band and the monitor effect is absoutely perfect. It really works Great!

 

[Eric Cioe]

I've been running a Bose L1 Model 2 with a B2 Sub for years and the absolute best way to run it is beside you, not behind you. Since they put out sound at about 180 degrees, you can angle it just slightly, slightly in toward the band and the monitor effect is absoutely perfect. It really works Great!

This is what we do, maybe a hair behind us. I use molded earplugs, loosening one slightly if I've got vocal parts. I brought my Subway rig once but the band sounds better blended when we're all direct.

 

[Wasnex]

I have experience with both the original L1 and ear plugs.

I totally agree the sound wearing ear plugs sucks. But IMHO, you need to accept it and wear them anyway. If you don't, years from now you will have tinnitus and hearing loss, so nothing will sound right.

I mixed a band with two vocals, drums, bass, guitar, guitar, trumpet, trombone, and sax for about two months on a pair of the original L1s with four B1 bass modules.

I turned the Bose proprietary sound processing off and mixed using a Yamaha DM1000. For monitors we used a pair of powered wedges. Bass and the guitarist had small amps. IMHO the SPL capabilities of the Bose were extremely limited, but the priority of the system was portability and light weight, so we used them a lot.

It took a few days for me to dial in a system EQ curve that worked. Since these stick arrays are very narrow, they allow more of the sound to wrap around them. Another way to describe this is to say they lose horizontal pattern control at a higher frequency. I had to put a fairly deep and wide notch in the mids to control feedback. Once I dialed in the necessary notch the mids sounded fairly natural and I had enough gain before feedback to push them to their rather modest limit.

I found the horizontal dispersion became fairly beamy at higher frequencies. Supposedly the current L1s have better dispersion. Because of the dispersion characteristics, the L1s did not produce a strong phantom image between them with normal spacing. To solve this, I moved them much closer to the center of the band. Putting them closer to the center exacerbated the feedback problem.

In order to get the highs out to a fairly large audience I elevated the columns. The either went on the stage or on a table if there was no stage. I also found that the vertical dispersion was very narrow at higher frequencies. To compensate, I placed something under the back base of the L1s to tilt them forward a bit. They are not designed for this and you could see them flexing at the joint.

If everyone wants to continue using the L1 for monitors. You could try sort of a hybrid approach. Run two more like a traditional PA. I.E. left and right at the front of the stage. Use the others at a lower volume for monitors. Try aiming them across the stage and aiming them back from the front line.

The problem with this approach is most people want to hear their own vocals and instrument about 6-10dB louder than other elements in the mix. With only two cabs for monitors, mixes will need to be share. So it will not be possible for everyone to get the desired 6-10dB.

 

[Stewie]

I just make sure that the Bose stick is behind or beside the drummer, but on the other side from me

 

[Barticus]

We’ve been doingg research on PA options and looking at going an X32 rack mount and either a pair of powered 18” subs with powered arrays or a pair of the new L1 Pro 32s. It seems the Bose provides the best portability but unsure if this will meet our needs for both indoor/outdoor venues.

Is it possible to use the X32 with the Bose and the just put the L1s out front and use wedge monitors on stage or in ears?
Or is it not intended to be configured that way?
Anyone with experience doing this with the Bose?

 

[Wasnex]

We’ve been doingg research on PA options and looking at going an X32 rack mount and either a pair of powered 18” subs with powered arrays or a pair of the new L1 Pro 32s. It seems the Bose provides the best portability but unsure if this will meet our needs for both indoor/outdoor venues.

Is it possible to use the X32 with the Bose and the just put the L1s out front and use wedge monitors on stage or in ears?
Or is it not intended to be configured that way?
Anyone with experience doing this with the Bose?

They are not really intended to be used that way, but it's exactly what I described in post #13.

The biggest limitation of stick arrays is max SPL. The max calculated continous SPL rating for the L1 Pro 32 is 117dB. A single QSC K8.2 will play significantly louder (rated 122dB continous).

Ratings can be found in these locations.
Technical Data Sheet, L1 Pro32 with Sub1 (bose.com)
QSC K8.2 premium powered, 8-inch, two-way loudspeaker

 

[Barticus]

They are not really intended to be used that way, but it's exactly what I described in post #13.

The biggest limitation of stick arrays is max SPL. The max calculated continous SPL rating for the L1 Pro 32 is 117dB. A single QSC K8.2 will play significantly louder (rated 122dB continous).

Ratings can be found in these locations.
Technical Data Sheet, L1 Pro32 with Sub1 (bose.com)
QSC K8.2 premium powered, 8-inch, two-way loudspeaker

Thanks, that’s what I understood as well… we saw them in use at Sweetwater GearFest back in 2019 and they had five of them on stage, but behind the individual musicians which seemed kind of odd, it seemed like it would be too loud (per the OPs situation) so was interested if there are other ways to use where the audience is getting the bulk of the sound.

And thank you, I absolutely read all of the posts (yours as well) which was informative for sure, and actually caused me to post those questions. I’m in learning mode, so may ask some dumb questions along the way

 

[Wasnex]

The L1 Pro32 says 128, you’re saying this is not accurate or it’s somehow measured differently?

No idea why there is a disagreement. This is from the Data Sheet I linked above:

A couple of points:

1. These are calculated figures and real world measurements will be lower due to power compression.

2. The Peak rating is 6dB over the continuous rating. This is commonly how peak ratings are reported, but AFAIK the real difference is only 3dB.

Why? (sorry this will be long and confusing) These ratings are based on RMS, Program, and Peak power levels. RMS and Program are both RMS wattage values, measured with RMS volts. Peak Power is simply 2X whatever the RMS value is. In the case of speaker ratings, it's usually 2X the Program power, but some manufacture use 2X the RMS power rating.

AFAIK these three values come from the way speakers are typically tested. A signal with 6dB crest factor is used. Crest factor is the ratio between the peak value and the effective value.

The point most people miss is 200W Program power is exactly the same amount of power as 400W Peak. It's a different way of measuring. Program power is measured in RMS volts and Program power is measure in Peak volts.

A steady sine wave has a 3dB crest factor. Remember when power is double you get +3dB. Likewise when power is cut in half, you get -3dB. This image shows a 3dB different between the RMS and Peak voltage.

Ohms Law Formula Wheel

Here's the RMS Watts to Peak Watts conversion calculation to show my point.
200W at 8 ohms requires 40V RMS.
The formula I used is V=sq rt(PxZ)

Now let's convert the RMS volts to its equivalent Peak value by multiplying by (sq rt 2)
40 x (sq rt 2) = 56.56854249Vp

Now let's calculate the equivalent peak wattage using the peak voltage and 8 ohms, using P = (V^2)/Z
(56.56854249^2)/8 = 400Wp

So 200W RMS = 400Wp (this represents a 3dB crest factor).

However, since they are actually the same power level how do you get any change in SPL?

Maybe there is a different in the way the SPL is measured as well, but AFAIK, your ears will not know the difference between 200WRMS and 400Wp.

AFAIK 117dB continuous and 120dB burst would probably a better explanation. Burst would be calculated on the RMS Program Power rating.

 

[Barticus]

No idea why there is a disagreement. This is from the Data Sheet I linked above:
View attachment 4824957

A couple of points:

1. These are calculated figures and real world measurements will be lower due to power compression.

2. The Peak rating is 6dB over the continuous rating. This commonly how peak ratings are reported, but AFAIK the real difference is only 3dB.

Why? (sorry this will be long and confusing) These ratings are based on RMS, Program, and Peak power levels. RMS and Program are both RMS wattage values, measure with RMS volts. Peak Power is simply 2X whatever the RMS value is. In the case of speaker ratings, it's usually 2X the Program power, but some manufacture use 2X the RMS power rating.

AFAIK these three values come from the way speakers are typically tested. A signal with 6dB crest factor is used. Crest factor is the ratio between the peak value and the effective value.

The point most people miss is 200W Program power is exactly the same amount of power as 400W Peak. It's a different way of measuring. Program power is measured in RMS volts and Program power is measure in Peak volts.
View attachment 4824980
A steady sine wave has a 3dB crest factor. Remember when power is double you get +3dB. Likewise when power is cut in half, you get -3dB. this image shows a 3dB different between the RMS and Peak voltage.

Ohms Law Formula Wheel

Here's the RMS Watts to Peak Watts conversion calculation to show my point.
200W at 8 ohms requires 40V RMS.
The formula I used is V=sq rt(PxZ)

Now let's convert the RMS volts to its equivalent Peak value by multiplying by (sq rt 2)
40 x (sq rt 2) = 56.56854249Vp


Now let's calculate the equivalent peak wattage using the peak voltage and 8 ohms, using P = (V^2)/Z
(56.56854249^2)/8 = 400Wp

So 200W RMS = 400Wp. (this represents a 3dB crest factor)

However, since they are actually the same power level how do you get any change in SPL?

Maybe there is a different in the way the SPL is measured as well, but AFAIK, your ears will not know the difference between 200WRMS and 400Wp.

AFAIK 117dB continuous and 120dB burst would probably a better explanation. Burst would be calculated on the RMS Program Power rating.

Wow, awesome explanation - thanks for breaking it down. No disagreement from me (just trying to understand) thank you for the detailed info, this helps a lot.

So from your experience with the L1s, it sounds like you’d recommend going with the traditional sub + array approach vs the L1?

It also seems like a lot of folks use the QSC Gear, is there a big advantage or differentiator that drives this? e.g. - sound quality, cost, power output, durability, portability? why QSC. vs Mackie, EV, other, etc.

and apologies to the OP for derailing

 

[Wasnex]

Wow, awesome explanation - thanks for breaking it down. No disagreement from me (just trying to understand) thank you for the detailed info, this helps a lot.

So from your experience with the L1s, it sounds like you’d recommend going with the traditional sub + array approach vs the L1?

It also seems like a lot of folks use the QSC Gear, is there a big advantage or differentiator that drives this? e.g. - sound quality, cost, power output, durability, portability? why QSC. vs Mackie, EV, other, etc.

I am not really making a recommendation. It depends on your priorities and how the gear will be used.

I used the L1s while deployed to the Middle East. I had immediate access to more powerful and better sounding gear, but the team wanted maximum mobility and was willing to trade off performance to get it. There were times when the Bose system did the job reasonably well, and also times when I thought it was totally inadequate.

The QSC K series is good solid gear at a decent price. I think this line provides a lot of value (quality VS price). It not the most expensive or the best though. If I was in the market for this level of speaker, QSC and EV would definitely be on my list, but it's possible I would choose a different brand. I would have to do the research and hopefully do some listening tests as well. I have heard QSC K10.2s and they sounded pretty darn good; probably better than what I own.