Double Bass Was I out of line here?

[Ed S]

Yet more drama from my standard Saturday morning jam!

In the winters, maybe 6-8 or us play inside in a coffee shop. Far better than the 20+ clusterf*** outside in the summer. The pickers are all of pretty decent ability. Some have played together 20+ years. I've been pretty much the sole bass for the past 10.

As you all know from jams, our basic role is trying to herd cats and encourage/impose some sense of rhythm on the group. This group comes close, but falls short as is common in most jams.

IMO, the biggest problem is the lack of a strong regular mando, and a surfeit of guitars. Even tho I try to establish/maintain a solid driving rhythm, my efforts can fall short to the extent everyone else does not fall into that rhythm. To my ear, if I lack a strong mando, I'm generally relying on a solid guitar boom-chuck. IME, when you get more than 2 guitars, their variations on strum patterns and where they hit the beat muddies it up.

So this newest guy has been playing with us for a year and a half. He is a really strong mando picker, but he prefers to bring his guitar. Which kinda sucks from my PoV, as he could be a powerful factor improving the jam's overall sound, but instead, as an extra guitar (sometimes as many as 4-5), he instead muddies the sound. But everyone gets to bring whatever they want to play, right?

But what messes with me is that he plays really "busy" strum patterns, and to my ear, I can't hear where the beats occur in his strums. I also perceive that he tends to speed up - especially when he goes into his breaks, but that might be my difficulty hearing his strums. So I exert a portion of my mind to essentially tuning him out, as he detracts from what I'm trying to do and what I perceive as the group's overall sound.

Further exacerbating things is the way we set up. I'm in a corner, sorta behind the 2 VERY STRONG boom-chuck guitar regulars. He sets up across the (very small) space from me, such that his sound projects right at me.

APOLOGIES FOR THE OVERLONG INTRO! Yesterday, after about 1/2 hour, in between songs I asked him if he could just play an example of his strum pattern in any 1/4/5 pattern, so I could better attune my ear to what he was playing. That's pretty much all I said. I couched it in remarks saying the issue was my limitation on being able to hear what he was playing.

He responded, "I'm not going to do that." And he later sent me an email saying he didn't appreciate being "called out" as I did.

So - long build-up to a short question. Was I out of line?

 

[DrCannabass]

Those that are less confident in their abilities tend to be hyper-sensitive to perceived criticisms. The poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage . . .

I would have done exactly as you did, ask him to help me play my part better by demonstrating in isolation his rhythmic conception. He'll be alright, just use the kid gloves

 

[31HZ]

Not in the least -- or in Reddit parlance, "NTA."

 

[BobDeRosa]

IME, when you get more than 2 guitars, their variations on strum patterns and where they hit the beat muddies it up.

But what messes with me is that he plays really "busy" strum patterns, and to my ear, I can't hear where the beats occur in his strums. I also perceive that he tends to speed up - especially when he goes into his breaks, but that might be my difficulty hearing his strums. So I exert a portion of my mind to essentially tuning him out, as he detracts from what I'm trying to do and what I perceive as the group's overall sound.

I commend you for tolerating the rhythmic torture for a year and a half, and no you weren't out of line. My guess is that he's an insecure player and a one-trick-pony with no sensitivity to group dynamics. All he's hearing is himself, and apparently, he likes what he hears.

But I'm also astonished that anyone in the group tolerates 4-5 guitars playing at the same time. That's not a rhythm section, it's a guitar choir that should split off and do its own arrangements.

If the group has a leader, he or she should step up and split up the guitar madness by limiting the number of guitars on each tune. Thet should take turns playing rather than all at the same time. That alone might prompt your raucous guitarist to bring his mando next time.

 

[Ed S]

...
But I'm also astonished that anyone in the group tolerates 4-5 guitars playing at the same time. That's not a rhythm section, it's a guitar choir that should split off and do its own arrangements.

If the group has a leader, ...

You and I agree. Unfortunately, this group kinda goes overboard IMO in priding itself as having no leaders and being open to all. Which creates all the expected issues. Yeah - sucks, but the best jam option for me (other than my string trio). Just about every jam I've played with has suffered (IMO) from a surfeit of guitars.

Yeah - I think you've correctly observed that he is playing what he wants to play/hear, without any consideration as to what works best for the group. As a person, he seems a really nice guy. And I think he is probably a quite accomplished guitarist - as far as that goes. If I were playing with him as the only guitarist in a trio/quartet, I'm sure we'd make some really fine music.

 

[Hoochie Coochie Man]

I can't offer any advice regarding how to deal with people, but if you could use some rhythm section help how about one of these?

 

[SteveCS]

He responded, "I'm not going to do that." And he later sent me an email saying he didn't appreciate being "called out" as I did.

So - long build-up to a short question. Was I out of line?

IME, not at all. How is wanting to know what is going on calling out? Unless, in all probability, he just fires out random patterns and isn't really aware of what is going on and doesn't want to be found out.

To my ear, if I lack a strong mando, I'm generally relying on a solid guitar boom-chuck. IME, when you get more than 2 guitars, their variations on strum patterns and where they hit the beat muddies it up.

From a diametrically opposed genre, they should all spend a few hours listening to Robert Fripp and the League of Crafty Guitarists. 20 or 30 all playing the exact same thing at the exact same tempo and dynamics at the exact same time is something quite mesmerising. Then they diverge and it becomes otherworldly...

 

[EdwardofHuncote]

I just can't participate in these kind of jams anymore, for all the examples you posted. I simply cannot enjoy that experience and will not tolerate the cacophony.

I get what you're saying though. I don't think the request was out of line. Might have been taken wrong. Easy to fix if you want to.

 

[MuseChaser]

Yet more drama from my standard Saturday morning jam!

In the winters, maybe 6-8 or us play inside in a coffee shop. Far better than the 20+ clusterf*** outside in the summer. The pickers are all of pretty decent ability. Some have played together 20+ years. I've been pretty much the sole bass for the past 10.

As you all know from jams, our basic role is trying to herd cats and encourage/impose some sense of rhythm on the group. This group comes close, but falls short as is common in most jams.

IMO, the biggest problem is the lack of a strong regular mando, and a surfeit of guitars. Even tho I try to establish/maintain a solid driving rhythm, my efforts can fall short to the extent everyone else does not fall into that rhythm. To my ear, if I lack a strong mando, I'm generally relying on a solid guitar boom-chuck. IME, when you get more than 2 guitars, their variations on strum patterns and where they hit the beat muddies it up.

So this newest guy has been playing with us for a year and a half. He is a really strong mando picker, but he prefers to bring his guitar. Which kinda sucks from my PoV, as he could be a powerful factor improving the jam's overall sound, but instead, as an extra guitar (sometimes as many as 4-5), he instead muddies the sound. But everyone gets to bring whatever they want to play, right?

But what messes with me is that he plays really "busy" strum patterns, and to my ear, I can't hear where the beats occur in his strums. I also perceive that he tends to speed up - especially when he goes into his breaks, but that might be my difficulty hearing his strums. So I exert a portion of my mind to essentially tuning him out, as he detracts from what I'm trying to do and what I perceive as the group's overall sound.

Further exacerbating things is the way we set up. I'm in a corner, sorta behind the 2 VERY STRONG boom-chuck guitar regulars. He sets up across the (very small) space from me, such that his sound projects right at me.

APOLOGIES FOR THE OVERLONG INTRO! Yesterday, after about 1/2 hour, in between songs I asked him if he could just play an example of his strum pattern in any 1/4/5 pattern, so I could better attune my ear to what he was playing. That's pretty much all I said. I couched it in remarks saying the issue was my limitation on being able to hear what he was playing.

He responded, "I'm not going to do that." And he later sent me an email saying he didn't appreciate being "called out" as I did.

So - long build-up to a short question. Was I out of line?

Short answer.....no, you weren't.

Longer answer ... I can't think of a way to handle it more kindly and tactfully than you did. Unfortunately, in my four and a half decades of professional experience, one of the hardest things to fix is time problems within an ensemble, and talking about it almost always makes it worse. Players with bad time aren't aware of it.. if they were, they wouldn't have bad time. Calling attention to it on a gig or performance usally instills paranoia, more self-doubt, and second-guessing which leads inexorably to even more problems. The way you approached the issue was beautiful; asking for help hearing what it was he heard inside his head, so that you could understand it and play together better. Couldn't ask for a better approach. Too bad he couldn't deal with it.

One of the hardest concepts for some musicians, including ones with impeccable time, to grasp is that it is WAY more important to be together than it is to be right. One of my favorite bassists in my area has an incredible melodic approach, knows a zillion tunes, solos better than most horn players, has more harmonic knowledge than the vast majority of cats, great pitch, and great sound. A beautiful player. He does NOT have a great "quarter note," meaning time does move around and he can drive some drummers nuts. However, playing with him in a duo setting is an absolute joy...I just listen and go with him. Why fight it?

I play in a big band with a drummer who is adamant about where he thinks the time should be, regardless of what the rest of the band is doing. He tends to rush, especially in metric modulations, while the trumpets and sometimes the saxes tend to play a bit behind. Instead of just listening and "splitting the middle" so the band sounds cohesive, he fights it and rushes more, resulting in trainwrecks.

It is better to be together than it is to be right. If there are players in an ensemble that don't understand that, there's not much you can do about it. Listen, make it as good as you can, and try to enjoy the good stuff.

 

[AGCurry]

No, you were not out of line. My only reservation in saying that is in wondering if the exchange might have been better in private.

I've always tried to be diplomatic, but we must decide ultimately what matters more: Our egos, or our music? Musicians want to make the best music they can make, and part of achieving that is criticism, both given and received. A healthy ego welcomes it.

 

[Anne Millington]

NTA. I am perhaps spoiled by my situation, in which politely asking for a clarifying snippet is not a big deal.

 

[Lee Moses]

That sounds about like the way I would have tried to handle it. Not being there, there might have been something in your tone, facial expression, or body language that rubbed him the wrong way. But overall, it sounds to me like a very diplomatic approach.

 

[Don Hergert]

I'd say you were very tactful and not out of line...

But, jams are totally unpredictable and seemingly random, even with people you're used to playing with. You never know what kind of baggage someone is carrying with them into a jam.

And, while people can learn a lot from a jam, a jam is not a teaching session, and a jam is not a good environment for trying to modify how other people are playing. Ultimately every person in a jam has to decide for themselves if they want to be there, given how the jam group is working out.

In the best jams, everyone in the jam understands that their role is to try to make everyone else sound good. You were doing that, but it sounds like not everyone else was.

It's obvious that you are not giving up on this jam, and that's nice of you and probably also good for you. But there are limits to what any single jam participant can do to improve things. "Making everyone else sound good" has to be a common goal to really work well.

 

[Ed S]

... My only reservation in saying that is in wondering if the exchange might have been better in private. ...

Yeah, that's a possibility, but it isn't as tho we'd have a chance to pick together privately outside of the jam. This was 30 minutes into a 4 hr jam. And a situation which had repeated itself EVERY week for some time. I thought the way I asked it was the best and most efficient chance to address it.

Hell, my initial idea was to ask if I could record him so I could listen and work on it myself after. I'm SURE he woulda taken that as some supreme insult!

He tends to discuss things in a - uh - intellectual/technical manner. For example, in one song I was having trouble hearing a passing chord. After, I asked the same guy and he said, "It's the dominant." I said, "I don't know what that means." And he said, "It is the flatted 7th." At which point one of my best buds said simply, "Play the B-flat, Ed."

NTA. I am perhaps spoiled by my situation, in which politely asking for a clarifying snippet is not a big deal.

Yeah. That's what I assumed. Always sorta surprises me when competent adults are threatened or something by simple direct questions/statements. We are all in our 50s and up. No reason to believe anything anyone says/does is ill-intentioned.

... might have been something in your tone, facial expression, or body language that rubbed him the wrong way. ...

Yeah - I anticipated that, so I was really careful to tone it down A LOT more than I instinctively would, stressing that I assumed the difficulty was on my part, reflecting the limitations of my knowledge, ability and ear. Maybe I come across as an ass even when I'm trying to be nice, but I think in this instance there was no way to address this without setting him off.

So - should this thread get a stickie or some special designation as a rare example of where ALL OF US agree on something?!

 

[Wasnex]

Yet more drama from my standard Saturday morning jam!

In the winters, maybe 6-8 or us play inside in a coffee shop. Far better than the 20+ clusterf*** outside in the summer. The pickers are all of pretty decent ability. Some have played together 20+ years. I've been pretty much the sole bass for the past 10.

As you all know from jams, our basic role is trying to herd cats and encourage/impose some sense of rhythm on the group. This group comes close, but falls short as is common in most jams.

IMO, the biggest problem is the lack of a strong regular mando, and a surfeit of guitars. Even tho I try to establish/maintain a solid driving rhythm, my efforts can fall short to the extent everyone else does not fall into that rhythm. To my ear, if I lack a strong mando, I'm generally relying on a solid guitar boom-chuck. IME, when you get more than 2 guitars, their variations on strum patterns and where they hit the beat muddies it up.

So this newest guy has been playing with us for a year and a half. He is a really strong mando picker, but he prefers to bring his guitar. Which kinda sucks from my PoV, as he could be a powerful factor improving the jam's overall sound, but instead, as an extra guitar (sometimes as many as 4-5), he instead muddies the sound. But everyone gets to bring whatever they want to play, right?

But what messes with me is that he plays really "busy" strum patterns, and to my ear, I can't hear where the beats occur in his strums. I also perceive that he tends to speed up - especially when he goes into his breaks, but that might be my difficulty hearing his strums. So I exert a portion of my mind to essentially tuning him out, as he detracts from what I'm trying to do and what I perceive as the group's overall sound.

Further exacerbating things is the way we set up. I'm in a corner, sorta behind the 2 VERY STRONG boom-chuck guitar regulars. He sets up across the (very small) space from me, such that his sound projects right at me.

APOLOGIES FOR THE OVERLONG INTRO! Yesterday, after about 1/2 hour, in between songs I asked him if he could just play an example of his strum pattern in any 1/4/5 pattern, so I could better attune my ear to what he was playing. That's pretty much all I said. I couched it in remarks saying the issue was my limitation on being able to hear what he was playing.

He responded, "I'm not going to do that." And he later sent me an email saying he didn't appreciate being "called out" as I did.

So - long build-up to a short question. Was I out of line?

It's pretty obvious you're frustrated with him...perhaps he picked up on some sort of (uncontrolled) non-verbal. So even if what you said does not cross the line, it seems clear he picked up on what you were thinking.

Part of your frustration is his choice of instrument...you want him to play mandolin and he wants to play guitar. IMHO, in this setting you don't really get much of a say, and not getting what you want probably makes you feel out of control and frustrated. IMHO, stop focusing on what you can't control.

I don't get the impression you enjoy the jam, so I don't understand why you keep participating. My advice: Either learn to accept the limits of this format, or do something else.

IMHO your role is to lay down time as well as you can. You don't generally have any control over what others do, which means you probably have to go with the flow quite a bit...and the flow is all over the place.

Despite what some people say about taking time from the bass, IMHO it's BS. The bass does not generally punch through the mix well enough for anyone to clearly hear where you are placing the beat. Even if they can hear you, there is some degree of interpretation...you think you are putting the beat in one place, and others think you are putting it somewhere else. Perception of where the beat falls can vary from person to person depending on what part of your note envelope they are relating too. Are they listening to the leading edge of your attack or the middle? Or maybe the are relating to the bloom that occurs towards the back end of the note, rather than the attack.

A lot of jazzers seem to like a really heavy attack. I personally think this type of tones sounds awful, but I do concede that it can communicate more clearly to others where you are placing the beat. So it can result in improved time and feel.

 

[Ed S]

...
I don't get the impression you enjoy the jam, so I don't understand why you keep participating. My advice: Either learn to accept the limits of this format, or do something else.
...

I think you may be slightly overstating this - or I have given the wrong impression. Tho I do at times come home from the jam wondering if that's how I ought to be spending my time, it isn't that there are a ton of better jams more convenient to me. And even if it could be better, it certainly has its times at which it is pretty good. Beats sitting home by myself.

A couple of the regulars are among my best friends - not a hugely long list. And the music they play is among my favorite. Even when the picking is less than spectacular, it is a no-risk opportunity to work on my harmony singing, so there is that. And when I want, I can work on taking bass breaks which I never would if there was anything on the line. And there isn't a helluva lot else I would be doing on Sat mornings in the winter. In the summer I could garden or golf, but I have plenty of other time/opportunities to do those.

I think I've gotten to the point many of you describe, where a jam of any size is of limited enjoyment. (Actually think I got there a couple of years back. In the summers, I go early and leave early when it starts to get big.) I get far more out of my weekly sessions w/ my string trio or classical quartet. Really doesn't seem like it should be too much to expect people to freaking LISTEN to each other, and try to contribute in a way that makes the group sound as good as readily possible. But if you get past 4-5 or so, it seems someone will turn up who has other priorities.

And you are right, my only real recourse is to absent myself.

 

[sean_on_bass]

APOLOGIES FOR THE OVERLONG INTRO! Yesterday, after about 1/2 hour, in between songs I asked him if he could just play an example of his strum pattern in any 1/4/5 pattern, so I could better attune my ear to what he was playing. That's pretty much all I said. I couched it in remarks saying the issue was my limitation on being able to hear what he was playing.

He responded, "I'm not going to do that." And he later sent me an email saying he didn't appreciate being "called out" as I did.

So - long build-up to a short question. Was I out of line?

No way! I think asking to hear something someone was playing is not out of line at all. Sometimes if i am not jiving with something someone is doing i will kinda be like "hey can you do that thing again?" so i can try to work myself into it. Assuming you asked this in a calm and respectful way, i can't see why this person was offended.

 

[Wasnex]

And you are right, my only real recourse is to absent myself.

There are always other options.

Perhaps you could organize a closed jam with some of your friends in the group...assuming there are a few people you would enjoy playing with.

 

[Dr. Love]

I don't think you were out of line, and his response sounds like he already knew it wasn't working and was frustrated. I'm not a bluegrass expert but I've played with a few and I don't think you need to worry about his strumming patterns much especially if there's other players. Just keep jamming, keep the tempo from the count in, listen to the melody or soloist, and hold the line while you focus on the overall group.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

This response may come across as harsh..

Let's get this right;
You're in a musical situation where the JAM mentality rules supreme.. a free for all, no rules, no leadership, no structure, no plan, no goals, setting?

Q: Is this not the epitome of anarchy and chaos in (musical) production?

Then, fully grasping the chaotic, anarchistic nature of the conditions, you have the audacity to ask one of these devout followers, what it is theyre actually playing so that you can play a designated, controlled, organised, planned, structured rhythm?
GASP!!!!

Then, you're shocked that you were told "NO" and surprised by receiving an email that missed the actual point of contention by miles by going off on a Victim/Abuser tangent!

Q: What other outcome could one expect, given both the objective and subjective conditions of the collective, are based upon anarchy and chaos ?
Q: What must be going on inside their heads to actively seek these conditions out?

Did you do something wrong?
YES. you failed to analyse the conditions precisely. You underestimated the power of anarchy, chaos and the DILLIGAF*, Art for Arts Sake, Jam mentality attitude.
*(Does it look like I give a F...)
Because of these failures, you fell into the trap of trying to get structure out of conditions and people that simply won't allow it.
These conditions are not susceptible to revisions or reforms. They'll either collapse on their own because the end product will be unappealing to the audience or they'll move the "trouble makers" on.

Edited***
The question should not be "Did you handle the situation correctly" but "has chaos and anarchy in music outlived it's usefulness for you?"