So I’ve been seeing a lot of people saying that an upright made today could never match up to one made in the 1800s, but my big question is why? Like, overall you would think they’d be better, at least ergonomically. Now I get that the sound changes as the wood dries and such, but like if a bass made in 1880 was kept in the exact same condition, somehow the wood didn’t dry out at all, wouldn’t it sound the same as a modern bass? And ergonomically, shouldn’t newer ones be better due to better machining and tools? Thank you in advance!
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More like romantic nostalgia, just like a pre-CBS Fender has to be better than any modern one. While age may be a consideration, every bass should be evaluated solely on its own merits or lack thereof.
Got ya, that makes sense. I sorta figured as much, as, at least in the saxophone world, it’s actually pretty common advice to avoid vintage horns due to ergonomic issues. So it makes sense that, at least to a degree, basses are the same
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I might suspect that the old growth wood used to build them of which there is little left has something to do with it but 150yrs of playtime can’t be manufactured.
I think we’re living in a golden age of luthiery, so I dispute the assertion that an old bass is better. I have played and heard some fantastic new basses.
Also selection bias means the old basses we still have tend to be the good ones.
Also selection bias means the old basses we still have tend to be the good ones.
I have a bias toward post 2000 basses, like cars. The vintage wheels have mojo, but I want consistency/reliability in my daily driver. I play a bass made in about 2002 and am currently not seriously looking for anything else. As I am all too fond of saying, anything that it can’t do is the fault of the player.
Clearly, you've never owned a Yugo.
The more you play a bass the better it sounds. An instrument from a top modern luthier will sound great as soon as its made. If it is taken care of and played hard, it will sound even better in a 100 years.
Also, a lot of over build Chinese basses are going to sound great after being played for a hundred years, just like a lot Juzeks and Morrellis sound good today but probably not when they were new.
Also, a lot of over build Chinese basses are going to sound great after being played for a hundred years, just like a lot Juzeks and Morrellis sound good today but probably not when they were new.
It's part history, part mojo, and part sound.
Documented history makes old things undeniably interesting.
Mojo is the belief part of it, including things like the ancient build techniques whose results cannot be proven, but are talked about in the back room, almost like a superstition.
And, some old instruments just sound amazing, no matter who is playing them.
Put those three ingredients together and you get the antique and vintage musical instrument market.
Transparency: This is coming from someone who has a modest collection of old musical instruments. Yes, I prefer them.
Caveat: Old instruments often require significant work and expense to make them playable.
Documented history makes old things undeniably interesting.
Mojo is the belief part of it, including things like the ancient build techniques whose results cannot be proven, but are talked about in the back room, almost like a superstition.
And, some old instruments just sound amazing, no matter who is playing them.
Put those three ingredients together and you get the antique and vintage musical instrument market.
Transparency: This is coming from someone who has a modest collection of old musical instruments. Yes, I prefer them.
Caveat: Old instruments often require significant work and expense to make them playable.
Million-dollar Strads fall to modern violins in blind ‘sound check'
Given that topflight professional violinists were consistently unable to identify centuries-old violins worth millions versus violins built in the last 20 years, the suggestion that bassists would be able to tell old and new double basses apart under similar conditions seems unlikely, to put it diplomatically.
I wouldn't argue about the sound itself, but from an economic point of view, the cost of labor and materials that was put into an old bass was long paid off. My bass is a German bass from the early 20th century, not from a famous luthier so it has no particular collectible value, it would have cost me maybe 3x its price to buy a new bass manufactured in Western Europe today.
Over time seams open, and cracks develop. An older instrument - as built - cannot be relied upon to be as sturdy as a newer one.
IMO, folk often (not always) look to old instruments for the mojo and "uniqueness."
I always think this plays some part. If you've found a truly great sounding instrument you do your best to care for it even to the point of looking for a good next owner. After surviving over 100 years of musicians an instrument must have something going for it.
Old good instruments resonate with the memory of the many who have played them. You play an open A, the whole bass speaks with the many players who have pulled an A. BTW players love good Strads because of how they can be heard in a large hall over an orchestra but also because of the amount of different sounds a good player can get out of them.
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
I’d have to disagree. An older bass will have more nuanced version of the voice it had when it was new. If that voice was good it will develop into a richer version, which kind of insures that, for the most part, it will receive better care, kept in better repair, etc. More so than a bass that has a weak voice, doesn’t project , etc. And eventually the bad sounding basses just disappear over the intervening decades or centuries.
So those Chinese basses that sound good, that have used more stable wood, and were soundly constructed will receive more care and repair over the decades. The mediocre or bad sounding ones won’t.
Maybe I’ll start calling this Attrition by Tone…
… but not “as built”. Stradivarius, like all other makers at the time, used a shallow neck angle (and very small bridge) that limited projection and would not have been suitable for use in a modern symphony orchestra. The Strads you hear played now had that “fixed” 150+ years ago.
The fun thing about basses is that you can still find unrestored ones. There was a post here within the last couple of years of someone who sourced an old unrestored three-string, a “family” instrument that had sat unplayed for decades. For various reasons, you just don’t find violins or cellos in that state very often.
The experience of breathing life into a dormant, functionally moribund instrument is very satisfying even if it turns out only “above average”. The illusion of “mojo” will also help the owner recoup restoration costs if the sound doesn’t even rise above that bar. I have had this done with electric basses and mandolin family instruments, but not an upright (yet).
Oldies are goodies, and New is nice. In the end, it’s simply about the opportunities afforded. I think for a long time here in the US, the only way to get a decent instrument was to buy one that came over in a previous generation on a steamship or sailboat, unless you knew a maker. That started changing 40-50 years ago, and we live in a far different environment now. There are so many great 20-30 year old instruments around now…
When I first started playing, there were very few options for affordable new instruments. Those that were around were pretty underwhelming so everyone was looking at older basses when bass shopping. Obviously the market has changed considerably since then. These days, I think it's just about how some people like old things, because they show signs of use and have mojo, while other people like new things because they are generally less maintenance and more reliable.