I've been playing with a new band for a few months now and there's a bit of an issue brewing. The drummer in this band has names for the beat a given song will require. We do mostly jazz and a lot of the stuff we do can have a Latin beat. So the drummer will say things like 'Oh this is a Samba beat or this is a Cumbia beat or whatever and I get that these different beats can be effective to help give a song a certain feel. But... to me it should not be at the expense of the groove. This drummer has books of these different beats and he will play the beat just as it is written. Sometimes to me the feel of the song will be kind of stiff. I'm no expert at specific beats but I think I'm OK at certain Latin "feels" and I'm trying to introduce this into the music we are playing but I feel like the drummer is being kind of ridged in his approach to the music. The guys in the band are all older than me so I think they feel like they have more experience and I should just fall in with what they are doing. Whenever I mention that a song feels kind of stiff, the drummer will say something like " this is a Samba and here's a Samba beat" and he plays the beat. I haven't really ever had this issue with a band before and I haven't been able to come up with a good way to explain or demonstrate what I'm talking about. Any ideas?
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The guys you are playing with are using traditional beats. A Samba is very different from a Tango which is not at all like a Cha Cha. So, to play correctly, you have to play the beat. You groove should sit on top of the beat, not the other way 'round.
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That's a tough one.
Does anyone else seem to have a problem with the feel of the music?
I'm right there with you by the way. The feel of the music is ever so much more important than playing the "correct" samba beat (or shuffle, or 6 beat, or whatever). The music is all about the feel.
It seems as though your drummer has read the sheet music and gotten himself stuck in a loop. He is just repeating the same beat over and over making sure he does it "correctly" for fear of pissing off other classically trained samba drummers in the room. That's hard to fix.
One of my favorite drummers lives/works in Nashville. I had the pleasure of doing a dozen or so gigs with him. He carries a small kit (on mounted tom and one floor tom) to gigs to cover everything from classic and modern country to bar rock. But his FEEL is just AMAZING. I look up at the end of the set and think "Dang. I almost forgot he was there!" His pocket is so huge I just get in it and play. It's as if we're one instrument.
Good luck with this.
Does anyone else seem to have a problem with the feel of the music?
I'm right there with you by the way. The feel of the music is ever so much more important than playing the "correct" samba beat (or shuffle, or 6 beat, or whatever). The music is all about the feel.
It seems as though your drummer has read the sheet music and gotten himself stuck in a loop. He is just repeating the same beat over and over making sure he does it "correctly" for fear of pissing off other classically trained samba drummers in the room. That's hard to fix.
One of my favorite drummers lives/works in Nashville. I had the pleasure of doing a dozen or so gigs with him. He carries a small kit (on mounted tom and one floor tom) to gigs to cover everything from classic and modern country to bar rock. But his FEEL is just AMAZING. I look up at the end of the set and think "Dang. I almost forgot he was there!" His pocket is so huge I just get in it and play. It's as if we're one instrument.
Good luck with this.
I could be completely wrong here since I've never studied it....but how I've contextualized it is this: the groove sits around beat. You can monkey with the groove by playing ahead, on top of or behind the beat. Most drummers I've played with it feels like I'm playing right on the tippy top of the beat. Only one I played with felt like I had a mile wide groove to play in.
I think what you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is this:
Jazz at its best is a spontaneous and improvised style of music. But your drummer isn't improvising, listening, or reacting to the other musicians; he is playing beats exactly as written from a book. Therefore his drum parts do not sound authentic to the style.
Does that sound like a good description of the problem? Is your drummer taking lessons? Does he have a teacher or mentor who is experienced in jazz styles? (Not, for example, a rock instructor who knows a few basic jazz beats.)
Jazz at its best is a spontaneous and improvised style of music. But your drummer isn't improvising, listening, or reacting to the other musicians; he is playing beats exactly as written from a book. Therefore his drum parts do not sound authentic to the style.
Does that sound like a good description of the problem? Is your drummer taking lessons? Does he have a teacher or mentor who is experienced in jazz styles? (Not, for example, a rock instructor who knows a few basic jazz beats.)
if the drummer really knows his business: ask him what the bass part is! that would be your starting point. the groove then will depend on what you and the drummer do after everyone knows the "correct beat." since it's jazz = you are both correct if you can play together.
if the drummer doesn't know what the bass part is: you are free to school him on groove, regardless of "beat." use your imagination.
a lot of drummers are duds on grooves.
if the drummer doesn't know what the bass part is: you are free to school him on groove, regardless of "beat." use your imagination.
a lot of drummers are duds on grooves.
Lets first understand people dance to that music and they expect a certain beat. Listen to your drummer and get him to help you with the bass lines he would like to see you play. The notes are secondary to the beat that is needed for the dance.
Groove comes next. Correct beat then groove.
Good luck.
Groove comes next. Correct beat then groove.
Good luck.
The type of terms he's using are simply drumming/rhythm terminology that define types of patterns. Samba, bossa nova etc. They have no relation to whether those beats groove or not - that's down to the taste and ability of the player. Him saying "This is a samba beat" is like you saying "This is a pentatonic line", "This is a mixolydian scale", "This is a minor blues scale riff"... whether or not you play those scales and riffs with or without a groove is not dependent on the scale you are playing.
Just because he is playing a particular Latin rhythm doesn't mean that he can't be playing it with a groove or a swing or whatever. If he is playing rigidly it is because he is playing rigidly - whether that's a samba, a blues shuffle or four to the floor disco beat.
Just because he is playing a particular Latin rhythm doesn't mean that he can't be playing it with a groove or a swing or whatever. If he is playing rigidly it is because he is playing rigidly - whether that's a samba, a blues shuffle or four to the floor disco beat.
You can't beat a good groove but you can always groove to a good beat.
I think I'm the only one who gets a little bit confused, and here is why.
The Samba rhythmic pattern (kind of similar to the Bossa-Nova) is a piece of some "dead notes" on the paper or a computer monitor, ipad, etc... There is no human touch, no human feel, etc...
It's up to the musician to make that pattern alive, make that pattern "breathe", have some "feel", etc...
If a musician cannot make that "monumentally-groovy" and very "easy-dancing" Samba pattern "move" your body, than, there is no need to talk about it.
The Samba beat/rhythmic pattern has specific requirements, accents for the drum or bass player/s that need to be, more or less, preserved, and I have no issues with it.
Also, I think if we are talking about JAZZ, it does not necessary mean the "guitarization" of the bass fundamental role by adding more and more notes.
Jazz = Swing.
(Remember the quarter notes).
If the band plays more instrumentally-"express-yourself" type of Music, it's a different story.
I seriously don't understand how Bass Players with their comping/grooving fundamentals could be upset by delivering a GROOVE called Samba, Bossa Nova, etc...
It's you, the Bass Player who make that "dead-notes" pattern alive, infuses mood, character, attitude, etc...
P.S. It's my solid belief that some rhythms like Samba or Bossa Nova are so powerful by their simplicity, and rechecked and re-verified by Decades of their Use that I don't have a lot of words to explain it to my dear TB colleagues.
The Samba rhythmic pattern (kind of similar to the Bossa-Nova) is a piece of some "dead notes" on the paper or a computer monitor, ipad, etc... There is no human touch, no human feel, etc...
It's up to the musician to make that pattern alive, make that pattern "breathe", have some "feel", etc...
If a musician cannot make that "monumentally-groovy" and very "easy-dancing" Samba pattern "move" your body, than, there is no need to talk about it.
The Samba beat/rhythmic pattern has specific requirements, accents for the drum or bass player/s that need to be, more or less, preserved, and I have no issues with it.
Also, I think if we are talking about JAZZ, it does not necessary mean the "guitarization" of the bass fundamental role by adding more and more notes.
Jazz = Swing.
(Remember the quarter notes).
If the band plays more instrumentally-"express-yourself" type of Music, it's a different story.
I seriously don't understand how Bass Players with their comping/grooving fundamentals could be upset by delivering a GROOVE called Samba, Bossa Nova, etc...
It's you, the Bass Player who make that "dead-notes" pattern alive, infuses mood, character, attitude, etc...
P.S. It's my solid belief that some rhythms like Samba or Bossa Nova are so powerful by their simplicity, and rechecked and re-verified by Decades of their Use that I don't have a lot of words to explain it to my dear TB colleagues.
Yeah I feel you. Played with a drummer, Alan Cook, cool guy, big free form player.
We were doing jazz tunes in a band and he would play the oddest licks to a tune that was otherwise clearly groove driven, or so it seemed to me.
Got to the point where the sax, obstensibly the strongest soloist asked us what were we playing, section by section. The drummer started his beats and then called me out to jump in and fulfill the rhythm. It was a moment.
Older players have been doing these tunes since they were teens (often). Some of them are trying to recreate Autumn Leaves out of the Days of Wine and Roses. It's all good....
We were doing jazz tunes in a band and he would play the oddest licks to a tune that was otherwise clearly groove driven, or so it seemed to me.
Got to the point where the sax, obstensibly the strongest soloist asked us what were we playing, section by section. The drummer started his beats and then called me out to jump in and fulfill the rhythm. It was a moment.
Older players have been doing these tunes since they were teens (often). Some of them are trying to recreate Autumn Leaves out of the Days of Wine and Roses. It's all good....
For me, the beat is the technical part of the music and the groove is the artistic element. And in my world they're inseparable.
But if you had to make an arbitrary choice between the two, I'd give the beat primacy. If you lose the beat you kill the song. If you lose or can't find the groove (in styles that call for a groove) you're just not a very good bass player.
But if you had to make an arbitrary choice between the two, I'd give the beat primacy. If you lose the beat you kill the song. If you lose or can't find the groove (in styles that call for a groove) you're just not a very good bass player.
I truly don't understand that "difference" between the "feel of the groove" and the beat pattern.
Here is a new album from a wonderful Korean jazz singer Youn Sun Hah singing easy-listening tunes.
Let's listen to a simple track, "She moves on".
Check how "un-busy" the bass or the drum players are.
Does the bass/Double bass (or the drummer) player not know about "extra notes"?
Double Bass - Brad Jones
Brad Jones website
Drums - Dan Rieser
Dan Rieser | Credits | AllMusic
Here is another simple song from Youn's album.
Check the simplicity of the bass/drum lines played by good jazz musicians.
Here is a new album from a wonderful Korean jazz singer Youn Sun Hah singing easy-listening tunes.
Let's listen to a simple track, "She moves on".
Check how "un-busy" the bass or the drum players are.
Does the bass/Double bass (or the drummer) player not know about "extra notes"?
Double Bass - Brad Jones
Brad Jones website
Drums - Dan Rieser
Dan Rieser | Credits | AllMusic
Here is another simple song from Youn's album.
Check the simplicity of the bass/drum lines played by good jazz musicians.
bass40hz
Cigar smoker, scotch drinker, American Patriot
Clave' anyone? Latin or Afro/Cuban music in particular is all about the rhythms because there are multiple rhythms layered on each other simultaneously. If one is off they are all off. Fortunately you only have one drummer to relate to and you have the opportunity to research the proper bass Tumbao to accompany the specific rhythm instead of merely playing an "OK Latin Feel."
As a bass player one of our greatest challenges is to take an otherwise rigid feel and make it groove. If you can find that happy medium where everyone in the rhythm section feels comfortable, despite the fact that they feel the beat or groove slightly differently, because they have you as a reference. Marcus Miller has said that he has learned as much from playing with bad drummers as with great ones. Use this as a learning experience and realize that if you can figure it out in the process you will be the one that gets the calls.
As a bass player one of our greatest challenges is to take an otherwise rigid feel and make it groove. If you can find that happy medium where everyone in the rhythm section feels comfortable, despite the fact that they feel the beat or groove slightly differently, because they have you as a reference. Marcus Miller has said that he has learned as much from playing with bad drummers as with great ones. Use this as a learning experience and realize that if you can figure it out in the process you will be the one that gets the calls.
Ultimately, the music that defines a genre did not come from a book. It came from people playing. The rules in music come after the fact. All these examples of specific rhythms come from years of people finding that these beats and feels worked for their specific music. It's not like someone woke up one day and said, "Today, I shall write a new style of music, and these shall be its tropes!"
Well, unless you're talking about "formal" (composed) music, but that doesn't sound like what's happening here.
Perhaps the drummer is not confident enough in his own ability to play these feels without sticking to "the book"? Or this bunch of musicians may not be the right cats for you.
Well, unless you're talking about "formal" (composed) music, but that doesn't sound like what's happening here.
Perhaps the drummer is not confident enough in his own ability to play these feels without sticking to "the book"? Or this bunch of musicians may not be the right cats for you.