With all the new lightweight amps, where are the tubes?

DaveAceofBass

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Feb 20, 2004
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As bass players we all know guitar players who swear by their tube amps and would never think of using only solid state amps. Many of us have owned these all-tube bass amps before, and the difference is undeniable. However, tube amps are heavy, and can be somewhat unreliable. On top of that, when you need to change the power tubes, you're talking hundreds of dollars and possibly needing to pay an amp tech for re-biasing of the tubes.

For many years hybrid amps (tube preamps with solid state power sections) helped us to keep some of the tube tone while reducing the weight compared to the all-tube variety. For me personally, hybrid amps have always sounded the best. I've owned a few of the greats including the Ampeg SVT 3-Pro (which sounded fantastic), the SWR SM-400, and an Aguilar DB750--the holy grail of hybrid amps. However, the trend for lighter weight gear is a good thing, and class D amps are the new norm.

Personally, I had one of the earliest class D amps from Acoustic Image when they first came out. This was my main amp when I was in my undergrad program because it worked so great with my upright bass. But, for electric bass the tone of the hybrid amps is hard to beat. With all of the new amp designs, it seems like tubes, even inexpensive preamp tubes, are on the way out. The only contender left right now is the GK MB Fusion series, but we all know that GK has a characteristic sizzle in its sound, and it might be nice to have some other options. I had hoped that NAMM 2016 would bring about some new designs from Genzler, Aguilar, Ampeg, or others...but it seems like all of those companies are moving toward solid state tube emulation circuits instead of the real thing. What a disappointment!

How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes? Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?
 
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How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes?


IMO the new Mesa Subway & Genzler Magellan seem to get it done with no tubes. The Aggie TH series has its fans as well.

Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?

Could it be that tube emulation has evolved enough to be considered as good as a pre amp tube and/or more reliable and/or more cost effective to produce? Carvin still offer a pre amp tube in their bass amps as well as some boutique builders as well. Reiner Application does very nice stuff with real pre amp tubes in a package that is still "micro" (I believe 10lbs for the 1200)
 
How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes? Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?

imho almost all of the "hybrid" amps didn't really cut it. They didn't sound, or more importantly, *feel* like a real tube amp. Throwing a 12AX7 (or two) in the signal path does not a tube amp make.

One exception is Jule's Monique. Running that preamp into a good class D power amp felt and acted like a great tube amp. But Monique is all tube preamp and rectifier, not just a tube in the circuit.

I'm actually happy with the latest crop of amps. While I love tubes, they still have some issues - they don't like to get banged around, and they don't last forever (though they will survive an EMP blast better than solid state :D). But amps like the Mesa D-800 and Glockenklang Blue Rock have plenty of headroom, and the preamps sound great. They don't feel like tubes, but if you run a good compressor you can get a bit of bounce, and they also have some grind you can dial in. They also seem to be nicely reactive to playing input.

So to me it kind of is all or nothing. You either have a full tube preamp like Monique into class D, or you design a really good solid state circuit. Roger's Valkyrie was more towards the Monique side of things as it had a more complex tube section that typical hybrids. And Mike's new Sonic Farm should have something going on, but again, they are not just tossing a 12AX7 into the path. I think for mass produced amps, it is more marketing than function.
 
How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes? Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?

I tend to prefer solid state solutions across the board for my own playing situations, so I would maybe be the wrong person to ask the first question. One compelling reason to omit tubes from a designer/marketer's standpoint is that one can then just use the aux power supply included in many of the power amp modules, rather than having to do bespoke high voltage/low current and low voltage/high current ones for the tubes. I'm sure you'll see some like that soon enough though.
 
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In my opinion and experience, there are a lot of "Class D" amps that sound *better* than either hybrid amps or full tube amps. For example, I far prefer the sound of my Aguilar Tone Hammer over than of the Genz Shuttle amps, or any Ampeg full tube stuff.

Judge the amps based upon their tone, not their architecture. Good amps sound good, regardless of what is inside of them.
 
I think it comes down to two simple things. Cost to manufacture/support and satisfaction.

Lightweight kinda implies that he purchaser will be grabbing and going with it more often. Simpler design (no tubes) usually makes things more rugged and cheaper... and to a point, predictable.

No maintenance and consistent tone are going to give the customer satisfaction as long as the amp was well designed.

Im not saying tubes are dead. There seem to be a number of people just on TB that will spend a fortune for a preamp or DI that has a tube in it.

But, for every one of those people there are 5 more that are perfectly happy with a large combo and 5 others that just want a great sounding head that they don't have to worry about any of the downsides to anything "tubey".

I feel pretty much like an odd ball as I like a great tube amp, I like a great solid state (D or otherwise), and I like a great hybrid. Each tool has a purpose.
 
I compared (SEVERAL TIMES) tube pre + SS power vs. SS pre + tube power, and Tube power won for me every time.

I have even posted some of those results, where I allowed TB members to vote, but since I wasn't slapping the crap out of my bass or playing "Flight of the Bumblebee" at 200 BPM, it didn't go over so well.

In any case, I really don't need tubes for bass. They make a bigger difference for guitar, IMHO.
 
How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes? Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?
I would like to see more of it for sure. I have an SVT 7 Pro and it's the best sounding "micro" (a little big to be a micro but it's class D and lighter weight than traditional hybrids so micro it is) I've ever used. Only one tube but I do think it's a factor in why I like it best.

But the reason you don't see more of it is that the competition in micro-world to have the lowest possible prices with the lightest amps means that most are willing to sacrifice the tube(s) if it means the amp will be cheaper and lighter.
 
In my experience i like tube or ss for different reasons. However having tubes or not isnt what makes me like the amp. ...the sound coming out of the amp is the only thing thst matters ...true i use a gk fusion 550. .love it i feel its a tube pre done right with a power section i love .
Class d amps havnt done it for me at all .but i couldn't say why ..just those amps ive tried weren't my thing.
So ime i say no some class d amps with out tubes don't sound as good as some hybrid with tubes.....(big generalization i know ) =)☆☆
 
How many TBers think that class D amps sound just as good without tubes as the hybrid amps that have tubes? Why aren't more manufacturers trying to integrate tubes into the preamps of their lightweight class D amps?

I've played through fully solid state, hybrid, and all-tube setups I've loved, and the same that I've hated.

The good stuff about valve amp sound is in the power section. Going valve in the preamp is mostly limiting factors, which isn't so much what you want in a preamp.

Yup.

imho almost all of the "hybrid" amps didn't really cut it. They didn't sound, or more importantly, *feel* like a real tube amp. Throwing a 12AX7 (or two) in the signal path does not a tube amp make.

Yup.

Roger's Valkyrie was more towards the Monique side of things as it had a more complex tube section that typical hybrids.

The Valkyrie (and the SWR Interstellar Overdrive I had a bunch of rigs ahead of it) have a small tube power stage with output transformer in between the preamp and power amp, and that really does the trick to my hands and ears. I think tube preamps can be warm or cold or whatever, but without the squish of a real tube section - even a tiny one - it doesn't have the feel. The Valk's preamp is 100% solid-state actually, but it feels right.
 
I am the current owner of a Peavey VB-3. This all tube 300 watt, 37lb amp does away with the traditional heavy power transformer and uses an SMPS (switch mode power supply). To my knowledge this is the only all tube bass amp configured like this. I was really hoping that some other manufacturers of all tube bass amps would use the same technology to develop other lightweight choices for all tube amps. Could you imagine a 35lb SVT? Or a 25lb. Mesa 400+. While the VB-3 is no slouch in the tone department and has an amazing tonal palette, the thought of reasonably light versions of some of the iconic tube amps would be a game changer, albeit an expensive one.
 
I am the current owner of a Peavey VB-3. This all tube 300 watt, 37lb amp does away with the traditional heavy power transformer and uses an SMPS (switch mode power supply). To my knowledge this is the only all tube bass amp configured like this. I was really hoping that some other manufacturers of all tube bass amps would use the same technology to develop other lightweight choices for all tube amps. Could you imagine a 35lb SVT? Or a 25lb. Mesa 400+. While the VB-3 is no slouch in the tone department and has an amazing tonal palette, the thought of reasonably light versions of some of the iconic tube amps would be a game changer, albeit an expensive one.

always been interested in those vb-3s!
 
The Valkyrie (and the SWR Interstellar Overdrive I had a bunch of rigs ahead of it) have a small tube power stage with output transformer in between the preamp and power amp, and that really does the trick to my hands and ears. I think tube preamps can be warm or cold or whatever, but without the squish of a real tube section - even a tiny one - it doesn't have the feel. The Valk's preamp is 100% solid-state actually, but it feels right.
For $2,000, it better be fantastic.
 
The best amps I've ever had were hybrids: Aguilar DB750 and Ampeg SVT 3-Pro. I've had the all tube amps too, which are amazing...but I prefer the convenience of the lightweight class D stuff.

Why is GK the only company that is using 12AX7s in their preamp? The GK stuff is good, but it's not as warm with it's super glassy top end.
 
I owned an SWR Baby Blue for years and I didn't think the tube added anything to the tone.

If anything, the way forward with tube hybrids would be a low wattage tube power section driving a solid state power amp.

I own an H&K Blues Master which is a real tube amp (12AX7 plus EL84) with a Fender bass/mid/treble/bright tone stack putting out one watt into 8 ohms. You can drive cabs with it...pretty amazing how loud a one watt amp can get...but it's really designed as a preamp, with or without speaker emulation. When used as a pre into a solid state power amp, it sure sounds and feels like a tube amp to me. :cool:

I'm surprised this approach hasn't been taken up by other mfrs. Even H&K never put it into any of their amps.
 
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