Wood choices and considerations

[mrperkolator]

What woods work together well, and which don't?

I'm a fan of unusual, so my particular interests are there. I'd love to see unusual and sustainable options, particularly if I end up making a bass myself. But, I'm not near as knowledgeable as some of you, so I figured I'd start this thread. For context, I'd love to do a bass with pecan and mesquite. Mesquite will not grow big enough for a body blank, and pecan would make for one heavy bass. So that leads me to layering. Doing a 1/4" top with a body made of something much lighter, and possibly a veneer between the layers. What woods would work with pecan? will a much lighter and less dense wood cause problems when glued up?

I've seen a bbq forum have endless pages on using odd wood for bbq. I'm sure we can discuss wood choices here too....

I'm sure y'all have some collective wisdom about what woods work for various reasons, or special considerations when using a certain wood. Tone is a consideration, but hopefully discussed only as one factor of a larger equation. I don't think TB needs another tone debate....

I'm hoping to start this as a discussion about various methods and considerations with different woods, particularly uncommon. I'll sit back and lurk....

 

[mrperkolator]

Paiging a few to get this started..... Feel free to tag other knowledgeable people..... I just picked a few from my limited lurking in the luthiers corner...

I would consider plywood and other non-standard to be particularly interesting too....But this isn't just my thoughts. Any wood combinations/considerations can be discussed.

@Beej @mapleglo @RichterScale @BeeTL @ctmullins @MirandM

 

[mapleglo]

I like maple and walnut, either together or separate.

 

[dwizum]

My priorities are mechanical fitness, good looks, and availability/sustainability.

By mechanical fitness I mean wood that meets these criteria:

1) free from defects (knots, twist, runout, etc) unless used in a purely cosmetic manner.
2) doesn't possess any seriously bad characteristics (extremely oily, extremely unstable dimensionally with respect to moisture content, etc)
3) is stiff enough for the desired application
4) is light enough that the bass won't be unbalanced or too heavy

The vast majority of hardwoods and some softwoods meet those criteria.

After that, the next most important thing is that it looks good. Sometimes you want a plain wood to offset another piece of the instrument made from something more fantastic, or to make for a clean design. Other times you want lots of figure or color. Choice must match, i.e. maple, walnut, and cherry look awesome together but bubinga, padauk, and purpleheart clash with each other.

Finally, sustainability and availability. The more I build, the more I try to think carefully about where the wood lived when it was a tree, and how it got to me. I like buying wood from "the slab guy" I met on facebook, since his lumber is all reclaimed local stuff so there's essentially no impact to living trees. Whether this is legitimate or not is up for debate I suppose, but I feel better about that than about buying a piece of something exotic from a rando ebay supplier where you have no idea how it was harvested. When I do buy exotics, I try to at least buy them from vendors who have a reputation on the line.

"Tonewood" is not a thing for me. Any impact that wood selection has on tone is covered under mechanical properties, as far as I'm concerned. Build with wood that has the right properties and you'll get a good result. There's no need to buy wood that has traditionally been used for instruments, versus similar wood that hasn't.

Regarding your question about wood choices working well with each other. The way that can bite you is if you choose species that have vastly different expansion properties. Most hardwoods are fairly similar but if you end up with something that moves a lot glued to something that doesn't move much, you'll be more likely to have problems than if all your wood behaves similarly. Grain orientation among laminated parts makes a big difference there since most species have more movement in one dimension vs others. You can look a lot of these properties up online if you're curious.

 

[RichterScale]

Well, I've only been a member here for a year, so most of what I know about exotics, most hardwoods and their use in instruments has been gathered over the last year.
For me, the factors in choosing a wood, particularly for a neck, are strength to weight ratio and stability. After that it's looks.
You want a wood that is strong for it's weight, but not overly heavy, will hold it's final shape and not tend to twist, bow, crack or expand/contract with temp and humidity changes and be hard enough to resist dings and and bending too far under string tension, but just flexible enough that it's not brittle. I think that's why hard maple is the most commonly used wood for necks, because it checks all those boxes.
Fruit woods tend to be very pretty, but they are very dense, heavy and they move (expand/contract) even after dried. So, not ideal for something like an instrument. Although, someone did make a bass out of all fruit wood last year and it turned out great, but I haven't seen any updates on how it's behaved.
Actually, cherry is a fruit wood and is comparable to maple in characteristics. It's a tich lighter. I do know that if it's not kiln dried properly, it becomes very brittle. But that's probably more of an issue with cheap cabinetry with hardwood facing than it is with dimensioned lumber.
As for the exotics, I've only worked with wenge so far. It's heavy, dense, hard and a little oily. I think a lot of the exotics are similar. A lot of people like to use epoxy for glue, especially on oily stuff. I used tite bond original to glue maple and wenge together and it worked fine.
As far as a lighter body core and hardwood veneers, tops and backs, that's a great alternative to saving a little weight and also a cool layered look. If you stick to the general list of woods that people typically use for instruments, you shouldn't have any issues with compatibility, movement or glue bonds. Alder comes to mind as a lighter hardwood alternative for a body or body cores. And if you are doing a top and back layer, you can use a heavier wood to achieve the right look. Having a top and back layer let's you chamber the center layer and hide it under the top and back.
When there's a wood that I'm interesting in or curious about, I check the wood database to see what it's typical characteristics and behaviors are. I like to compare to woods that are commonly used and/or that I'm familiar with, to gauge what it will be like. It's been very helpful so far.
The Wood Database

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I’m a sucker for walnut, maple, and ebony. Walnut is great for bodies, it’s relatively light and hard, and maple is perfect for necks. Real jet black ebony is nearly unobtanium, so I’ve switched to Rocklite Ebano synthetic for fingerboards. Bubinga is another beautiful wood, so is Purple Heart. The exotics are so expensive now they are best used as veneers or accent layers, but maple and walnut are still pretty readily available. I like alder or poplar for painted basses, relatively closed grain, and hard.

 

[RichterScale]

Tone is a consideration, but hopefully discussed only as one factor of a larger equation.

And I agree with the notion that if you choose materials and construction methods that are suitable for a solid body electric bass, a side effect will be an instrument with good tone. Finer adjustments and color can be added with pickup/electronics choices, strings and playing style.
I wouldn't get caught up in any conversations or arguments that describe wood choices/tone like a wine list or artisan chocolates.
Wood choice and construction methods absolutely have an effect on final sound of an instrument. But I don't believe it's something that can be controlled and determined to the finite levels of detail that people describe, before the instrument is built, simply by the species used or what layer got glued on top of what other layer, etc.
Someone like Bruce, who's been building instruments forever and has made a million of his scroll basses, is probably familiar enough with his basses that he knows that if he switches to a different body wood and tweaks his pickups, he'll have a good gauge on what it will sound like, or how it will sound different. But for the most part, most people are guessing and can't really tell you what a specific combo/arrangement of woods will specifically sound like (dark, earthy, with a hint of jasmine and citrus, yada yada) before the instrument is done. Or, on an instrument never built before. So, I wouldn't get too hung up on the minutiae of it all.
I also don't think most people can hear the difference between 2 identical solid body instruments with 2 different top wood veneers.
Start with good materials and construction methods and you will automatically be in the ballpark of an instrument that has good tone and sustain when it's finished. After that, you can play with details for tweaking the sound. Like, brass nut vs bone or plastic, different strings, etc and most influential of all, pickups and pickup location.
And then, of course, you have onboard preamps and amps themselves. Adjustments are almost unlimited.
And, of course, this is all based on solid body electrics.
Acoustic instruments are an entirely different topic.

I'd love to do a bass with pecan and mesquite. Mesquite will not grow big enough for a body blank, and pecan would make for one heavy bass. So that leads me to layering. Doing a 1/4" top with a body made of something much lighter, and possibly a veneer between the layers. What woods would work with pecan? will a much lighter and less dense wood cause problems when glued up?

Mesquite seems to be a very heavy and extremely hard. It also says that irregular grain and defects are very difficult to work. So, unless the grain itself is absolutely gorgeous without any irregularities, I'm not sure I would spend the effort on it. Especially since it comes in small sizes and would have to be pieced together. I've never worked with it, that's just based on a quick read.
Pecan is related to hickory, but not as heavy or hard as actual hickory. Pecan seems to be just a little heavier than hard maple and ash. I also didn't see any mention of stability or behavioral problems. I've never worked with it, but based on it's description, I don't see why it couldn't be used used in a body or even a laminated neck.

 

[RichterScale]

Also, do you say it "pee can" or "p'kon"?

 

[Matt Liebenau]

If you can get a piece of Mesquite big enough for a 2 or even 3 piece top there’s no reason not to make a pecan body and chamber it and install a Mesquite top. I believe pecan would be strong enough to work pretty well. I have seen some pretty neat looking Mesquite but typically more in a fretboard size.

 

[arbiterusa]

I am a big fan of wenge/panga necks. Especially on ash bodies.

For unusual top woods with unknown acoustic qualities, I’m sitting on about three sets worth of Tasmanian AAAA grade flamed eucalyptus. I gotta think real hard about what that’s going to go on. I know this much; it’s fairly hard and crazy brittle, so I won’t be using it for an acoustic guitar.

 

[WillyW]

I like walnut and mahogany and even poplar for bodies.

necks have a much wider range of stuffs I like.... couldn't pin it down to less than 15....

 

[micguy]

Bass or guitar bodies are rather forgiving in terms of wood choice - the demands on that part of the instrument aren’t tough at all. Paulownia, which is one step up from balsa wood, works fine. The top on a body is the least critical of all - the biggest stresses on a body are in the neck pocket, the top is pretty much decorative - which is why spalted (decayed) wood works OK for a top. A mesquite top? Sure. What is probably most important in a body is low density, so the thing doesn’t weigh too much.

The neck and fretboard, however, have pretty rough demands. You need stiff, strong, stable wood for a neck. The fretboard is the same, with the added requirement that it holds frets well, which isn’t a trivial task at all.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

Some folks are all into "woods from around the world" but I think it can be very interesting to drop by any local sawmills and see what they have that is local, as well as unusual (not that there's anything wrong with local and usual.) There are many perfectly good woods that are not oak, walnut, cherry, maple, or poplar (tuliptree) which are not moved in great quantities because the demand is more limited. Sometimes those can be deals (these days, I don't know.)

Woodfinder: Find Sources of Lumber, Veneer and Sawmill Services can be helpful for (some) local sources, but call before you drive and find the place is gone (particularly now) or the description is in error. And realize that they don't have everything, either - so ask locally as well.

This can be handy to find guys running a Wood-Mizer in your area, who may have weirder-than-average woods available due to the nature and scale of their operations:
Find a Local Sawyer | Wood-Mizer USA (non USA folks, they do have other countries available.)

(Disclaimer - I have at least some purpleheart, Port Orford Cedar, bits and scraps of ebony and likely some word-wide-woods I've forgotten in my piles. Though I can say that the vast majority of my pile is within 700 feet of where it was a sapling. Oh - and a bit of bodark or osage orange that's not local to here, but you might have locally.)

 

[JW56789]

Out of the basses I've owned, the two (almost pedestrian) wood combos I found the most useful:

And bear in mind I'd far rather have a bright instrument I can cool off than a fairly dead-sounding instrument you just can't wake up.

For smooth, Les Paul had it right: A maple cap over mahogany is articulate with warmth.

For something with more honk (and I think vital in a five or six to prompt solid, tight low C's and D's as well as articulation up and down the fretboard) I like maple necks with ash bodies, although you have to be careful weight wise with your parts, can get heavy.

In either case, I prefer ebony fingerboards, full 1/4" if I can get it. Ebony adds just a bit of extra zing and is the next best thing to steel or carbon rod backups to the truss rod. It's STIFF.

In my experience, the big, multiple laminations with who knows what and how many different exotic woods, while offering extra strength as a neckthrough piece are a crapshoot trying to figure out which of the cards in the deck is going to really affect the sound.

Totally un-scientific, and only my experience based.

 

[lbbc]

I had a bass made by Dave Pushic of Walnut core, maple accent and claro walnut top. The neck was eastern hard rock maple and wenge tone wood with Madagascar ebony fretboard. It looks, plays and feels amazing.

 

[TerribleTim68]

Also, do you say it "pee can" or "p'kon"?

I pronounce it "Peckin" just to make everyone angry.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I dont see a lot (any?) people arguing that the wood chosen makes NO difference. The argument is how MUCH difference it makes relative to pups, strings, and players touch, all factors that can easily outweigh the subtle differences between woods used on electric instruments. Trying to predict the tone of an instrument assembled from unique pieces of wood in anything more than gross generalities is a fools errand. The most convincing explanation Ive heard is that everything on a bass is subtractive, string vibration energy lost to one degree or another by the bass as a SYSTEM. Nothing is emphasized unless its artificially boosted by active electronics, so the tone is the sum total of what parts of the string energy are absorbed or otherwise lost. The more rigid the body/neck assembly is, the less string energy lost. This could be good or bad sounding depending on your taste. Meh. Put together a well built neck out of a fairly rigid material like maple, and chances are it will sound decent. The body is where you can get more creative, within reason, I dont think it matters all that much.

 

[RichterScale]

The OP was asking if there were any concerns with using locally sourced pecan and mesquite. Based on pecan's brief description on wood data .com, I'd say it's worth a try, as long as the construction method is paid attention too. Which we would all be more than happy to do our best to help with along the way, even though none of us work for a major guitar mill.
If there's any expert you tube vid watchers that can verify the precise tonal quality that pecan will create and whether or not it's good for a bass, please speak up (I've never built a bass from pecan). That would actually be helpful to the thread.

 

[RichterScale]

And I apologize if I'm the one who triggered this.

 

[micguy]

One thing I think that seldom gets talked about in these thread is damping. Wood changes dramatically when it ages, dries out, etc. If you ever drive screws into new 2 x 4's (which are relatively wet) they don't make much sound. But if you drive screws into old Douglas Fir studs, they SCREAM at you - wood dries out, and the lignin in wood crystallizes over time, to where it's a very different material after it's been aged for decades; torrefied wood is much the same. I have built quite a number of basses with baked maple necks, and a few with baked Alder or Swamp Ash bodies. If you tap on them, they ring, and you can hear it pretty clearly in the output of the thing - it's "alive", and a joy to play as a result.

The electrical output of an electric instrument depends on the relative motions of the strings and bodies - if either one moves, the pickup will have that movement present in its output. If you've ever used a snark tuner, it works only because the wood of the instrument is moving. So, we know there is output from the wood moving - scientifically, that's an established fact. The strings also vibrate differently because they're attached to the wood - dead spots prove that. So, you can't argue that different wood doesn't make any difference, it absolutely does make some difference.

You can argue, however, whether the differences are big enough for you to hear in most circumstances if you want. Of course, that also plays into the question of what certain people can perceive my listening tests over decades of testing of audio gear tells me that there is a wide range of hearing acuity among individuals. What i can hear, and what you can hear are two entirely different things.