I would hold off and wait for a pre CBS 60s to pop up, sounds like you have the funds!
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
Welcome to TalkBass! Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Buy #1 and play it long and hard enough so that the finish comes off naturally.Two vintage 1959 P basses have become available to me for purchase from a private seller. While I'd obviously love to buy both, that's not something I can entertain right now (and owning one would be special enough!)
Had an incredible time putting them through their paces and they're unique and fun in their own way so having an impossible time choosing.
Trying to get a sense from the collective wisdom here which is the way to go. They're available to me for the same price. Both 3TSB, anodized guard, maple neck, tweed case and 2-59 neck date. Wanted to call out some key differences below. Which way would you go and why?
Bass 1:
Refret and new nut. Neck finish, while original, feels quite thick compared to Bass 2. More tacky to slide up and down almost like a newer P, which I don't love.
Bass 2:
Original frets and nut. Neck much smoother and more worn so really feels great like a vintage P should. From finish transfer marks where neck and body join (you know, how some body paint lands up on the neck butt) it seems like this neck is not original to the body. So at worst *possibly* a period correct neck swap.
Help me please! Carrots assumed to be the right option so left out of the polls
- Jun 6, 2012
- 4,837
- 6,854
- 4,626
- Disclosures
- I don't wait 30 minutes after eating, to go swimming.
Don't forget the high mass bridge with whammy bar!
EDIT: Dang, someone else mentioned the Kahler. :-D
I voted number 2. This is going to be a sizeable investment either way, but you "don't love" number 1, whereas number 2 plays and sounds like you think it should. Seems like an easy choice, from my perspective.
Another couple of things to consider, especially given the size of the investment:
I would either bring an expert second set of eyes with you, even if you're confident that you know your stuff about vintage instruments. And I would make the seller sign a bill of sale that says that, within 7 days, if anything non-original is found to be existent on the instrument (I am assuming that it was advertised as all original and you're paying an all original price) AND if there is any issue with any of the wood, then you are entitled to a full refund. And get a picture of the guy's license. That way, if this goes south, you take the info on his license, spend the $25 on a background check, and have him served by a court.
The other thing I would do is invest $27 US on the Vintage Guitar Magazine Vintage Guitar Price Guide ASAP. You can get it on Amazon. Do NOT overpay for this bass. Remember that very few people can afford or are willing to spend this kind of money on an instrument. You are in the driver's seat. People are asking WAY too much money for these vintage instruments. For example, if you look at that price guide, then look at what Norman from Norman's Rare Guitars charges for his instruments, the only conclusion you'll end up reaching is that the guy is a sheister. There are many more like him. Do not pay more than this instrument is worth and be prepared to walk away.
I bought a '65 Jazz in December and had a close call with getting ripped off. It felt great and the neck had a very slight bow that you would expect. As the weeks went by, I realized that it played like crap in the upper register. It began to dawn on me that the bow was more than I realized and it was only on the bass side. Not good. I sent pics to a few friends and they agreed. The truss rod was all the way out. There isn't much finger board on this thing. I'm screwed. I took it to a luthier who said 'No, it's bowed on both sides and entirely fixable with, worst case, a shim.' They ended up fixing it without a shim and it plays like a whole other instrument. The cheap bastard who sold it to me couldn't have spent $75 on a professional set up before selling it to me for $6500? Obviously not. Let this be a cautionary tale.
This a lot of money here. Don't f#ck around. If he objects to the things that I mentioned, that only means one thing: he's up to no good or has something to hide. If I were the seller, I would admire and respect where that buyer is coming from. If he doesn't admire and respect that, he's a crook, guaranteed.
I would either bring an expert second set of eyes with you, even if you're confident that you know your stuff about vintage instruments. And I would make the seller sign a bill of sale that says that, within 7 days, if anything non-original is found to be existent on the instrument (I am assuming that it was advertised as all original and you're paying an all original price) AND if there is any issue with any of the wood, then you are entitled to a full refund. And get a picture of the guy's license. That way, if this goes south, you take the info on his license, spend the $25 on a background check, and have him served by a court.
The other thing I would do is invest $27 US on the Vintage Guitar Magazine Vintage Guitar Price Guide ASAP. You can get it on Amazon. Do NOT overpay for this bass. Remember that very few people can afford or are willing to spend this kind of money on an instrument. You are in the driver's seat. People are asking WAY too much money for these vintage instruments. For example, if you look at that price guide, then look at what Norman from Norman's Rare Guitars charges for his instruments, the only conclusion you'll end up reaching is that the guy is a sheister. There are many more like him. Do not pay more than this instrument is worth and be prepared to walk away.
I bought a '65 Jazz in December and had a close call with getting ripped off. It felt great and the neck had a very slight bow that you would expect. As the weeks went by, I realized that it played like crap in the upper register. It began to dawn on me that the bow was more than I realized and it was only on the bass side. Not good. I sent pics to a few friends and they agreed. The truss rod was all the way out. There isn't much finger board on this thing. I'm screwed. I took it to a luthier who said 'No, it's bowed on both sides and entirely fixable with, worst case, a shim.' They ended up fixing it without a shim and it plays like a whole other instrument. The cheap bastard who sold it to me couldn't have spent $75 on a professional set up before selling it to me for $6500? Obviously not. Let this be a cautionary tale.
This a lot of money here. Don't f#ck around. If he objects to the things that I mentioned, that only means one thing: he's up to no good or has something to hide. If I were the seller, I would admire and respect where that buyer is coming from. If he doesn't admire and respect that, he's a crook, guaranteed.
I can't stand a sticky neck, but I'm not an expert on vintage basses either... so as long as the price is right, I'd put my money on what's behind Door #2.
WHAAAATTTTTTTTTT????????????
Drop the unicorns and fairy dust mythology. There was nothing resembling a "workshop"; Fender was definitely a factory in 1959!
As was mentioned above, this isn't exactly pizza money... You are buying an assemblage of wood, metal and plastic with a CONSIDERABLE premium added for "collector's appeal". I have owned more than my rightful share of 1950s musical instruments, and as far as I'm concerned, a refret might as well be a refin in terms of originality. So I cast my vote for BASS NUMBER TWO 
I've never bought a truly vintage instrument, nor am I in the market for one, but you are obviously very knowledgeable, so I hope you don't mind me asking - I promise I'm looking to learn, not to challenge your experience - so my question is:
If the market (that is, Norman's) says it is worth something, and a book, published at a static point in the past, says it's worth less, wouldn't the market be the authority here? I mean, if you took this book to a seller who *knew* they could get $15k for an instrument, but you were insisting it was only worth $10k and showing them this book to validate it, wouldn't they just tell you to take a hike, and happily get their $15k elsewhere?
I totally agree with you. Despite what I said, ultimately, what something is worth is what someone will pay for it. For example, some people think MLB pitchers, actors, etc., you name it, are overpaid. Ultimately, they're worth what they can get. If they can get it, they're worth it. I guess the musician in me os outraged at what people charge. But the Libertarian in me tells me you're right.
I owned a 59 for many years (like 50). Neck dates were handwritten in pencil back then. If the one that suspect has a replacement neck, that would reduce its value.
FYI Norm will deal on the price he lists. He’s in business to make a profit of course, but he’s been doing it long time and has a solid reputation. Being in LA his asking price is a little more than other dealers in the Midwest so you’re able to crosscheck what they are selling and negotiate with him.
Edit: last time I was at Norman’s he got in two ‘59 P-basses and I played both. They were both in great condition and the asking price reflected that.
His products I have to say are phenomenal. I'll give him that. Problem is, he asks often times twice what it's worth according to the price guide, so even if he deals, you're likely still paying too much. Maybe i was a little harsh and was only using that store as an example. I guess I'm a little aghast at how much over and above the price guide value people are asking. I guess if they can get it, all the power to them. When I bought that '65 Jazz, I didn't overpay. I guess I kind of expect that.
Sounds to me like they should not be the same price. No. 2 should be cheaper than No. 1.
What size frets were used on the fret job? Proper 6230s, or some medium or jumbo nonsense?
What size frets were used on the fret job? Proper 6230s, or some medium or jumbo nonsense?
If the second one plays better I’d go with that. Hard to tell without knowing the price differences, but if you suspect the neck isn’t original than you shouldn’t be paying for a 100% straight 59 p bass.
Having said that I’m not really sure what you mean when you describe the pain situation at the neck joint. Most bass necks don’t have overspray on them.
Having said that I’m not really sure what you mean when you describe the pain situation at the neck joint. Most bass necks don’t have overspray on them.