Double Bass Advice on bass line and chords for Bye Bye Blackbird

I gotta say I sometimes disagree with Mr. Kasper, but he's on the money here. We're talking about Bye Bye Blackbird! It's not some abstract tune with non functional harmony and lots of room for dissonant chords. If you're choosing to play that tune there's generally a tacit agreement that you're going to follow certain conventions. When I was a young guy I had a steady once a week gig in Lansing Mich with Henry Butler on piano, a drummer named Randy Gillespie, and Roscoe Mitchell on alto. We played standard standards like Blackbird and it got pretty rambunctious sometimes, but the basic sound of the harmony was always there. Sonny Stitt would have heard the chords and fit in just fine. You don't need to go hunting for odd mathematics to sound striking and unique.
I enjoy both approaches. I can enjoy a simple, straight-ahead rendering if it's played well by skilled musicians and I also enjoy folks turning it into something unrecognizable too. I saw Herbie Hancock last year and they did a complex meter version of All Blues that I really enjoyed, very creative. I still don't know what the meter was but it was definitely odd, something like 9/4s or 9/8s, I guess. Keith Jarrett. In general, if I play a well-known tune like Autumn Leaves or Bye Bye Blackbird, I wouldn't perform it like a famous recording but try to "dress it up" somehow. Autumn Leaves works well in 7/4. I haven't devised an arrangement for Blackbird yet, but I'll have to give that some thought. Looks like it's be feasible to put the bridge in 3/4 which would add some interest. I think it could also work well as a Partido alto.
 
This thread has certainly taken some rollercoaster turns. I kind of have to laugh at the notion of Lynn Seaton being a representative of the "Kumbaya" school of jazz education. He's been a friend and mentor for decades, and he's about as far from "Kumbaya" as anyone I can imagine in his teaching. We have taught a number of masterclasses together over the years, most often about thumb position techniques and approaches, but also about walking line construction and general improvisation. His approach and mine are different in some aspects, but he was always really good about presenting his version as "here's another way to do it if that way doesn't work for you", which is one of the reasons I consider him such a great teacher.

And he's also a great accompanist, not only in the technical sense (I mean, he is Lynn Seaton, after all), but also in the expressive sense. I've seen him play dozens, perhaps even hundreds of times over the years. When someone he is accompanying is going for something different, he's a master at playing something to help facilitate it and make the other person sound good. I don't know his views on the side slipping minor reharm in question, but I can promise you that if someone he was accompanying used it, he'd hear it and play something that made it work. Because he understands that his job - as he has pointed out more times than I can count - is to make the whole band sound and feel good.
 
Tom,
Your statement above is what I'm referring to...
Of course "A" is not a literal part of E7#9+5, but why is it NOT a problem for you?
I think in the Bridge of BBB, the E7#9+5 works in the second measure there (C Bb A G ) because 75% of those notes are IN or consonant with the chord. The A is momentarily "dissonant" but is a mere passing note that is surrounded by very "inside" pitches. That is why the A works in that measure. IMFO, of course.
Are you saying ANY note can be included in an Alt. Chord because Alt.Chords are supposed to be "disodent"(sp).
Am I misunderstanding your quote above? (I am old and getting older by the measure!)
Thanks for your interest.
I would hate to have to sing the melody over an E7 there. Sure, 75% is a passing grade (better than I did in school), and E7#9#5 "works", but I don't think it serves the song in any way. It was likely added somewhere along the way to make the blowing more interesting. I also wouldn't really consider the A a "passing note" since it lands on a strong beat at the start of a word, lyrically.

Can we at least agree to NEVER play the B-7 on the first two beats with a C and Bb in the melody? :laugh:
 
It was likely added somewhere along the way to make the blowing more interesting.
Yes!! I believe that is the case. I play with soloists who regularly play those changes, so I DO need to know & hear & play them.
Can we at least agree to NEVER play the B-7 on the first two beats
Sorry, We cannot... It happens, but only on the blowing. So, I'm going with it. IT'S MY JOB. (smiley face here)
Thanks for your interest.
 
Yes!! I believe that is the case. I play with soloists who regularly play those changes, so I DO need to know & hear & play them.
I do, as well! We can change their minds too, Don!

I understand it is more common than playing it correctly, and, of course I would go with whatever is happening on the gig, but does that mean we can't create discourse about it?
 
"Universal law is for lackeys. Context is for kings." - Captain Lorca, USS Discovery

The end goal isn't to play one set of changes but to be flexible. I guess that is a style thing but it's fun to play with people you know are listening and responding to you in the moment. Singing the melody and accompany yourself can let you know what bass notes help you hear the melody and what cadences are essential and which are flexible. (I.E. A million changes could work in some of the places in the tune but if you don't hit a dominant 7 on the third eight bar phrase your in trouble. )

I would kill for a lesson with Lynn Seaton!



Sometimes you do have to just go for it but It's a lot more fun to jump in when you know how to swim. Confidence on stage is earned in the practice room.
I took crd's advice and sang the tune while walking in two and have updated my chart accordingly. Thanks for the suggestion, it was a wise one. Here's what I got:

1723049690611.png
 
I do, as well! We can change their minds too, Don!
Have you ever tried to talk changes to a saxophonist? Good Luck! (smiley face here)
does that mean we can't create discourse about it?
I don't have much interest in talking about it - I just want to hear it and play it. (No smiley face here.)
But, YOU can "discourse" all you want till the cows (or Blackbirds) come home! (smiley.....)
Thanks for your interest and civility, k. I appreciate both.
 
Never heard of a B-^7b9 add -7 chord before. Thanks for the lesson!
Neither have I. The soloist will probably NOT be shackled by the literal "melody" at that point, so it all works out. I like to think of the Melody and Harmony existing in a Symbiotic Organic relationship - in real time...at the highest level, of course.
More Listening/Less Reading!
Thanks.
 
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Neither have I. The soloist will probably NOT be shackled by the literal "melody" at that point, so it all works out. I like to think of the Melody and Harmony existing in a Symbiotic Organic relationship - in real time...at the highest level, of course.
But my original post said "with C and Bb in the melody".... not just blowing.

Again, I agree, always be listening. I am just challenging the harmony in that bar. The melody is what the blowing is derived from, is it not?

don't have much interest in talking about it
You are the one who responded to my original post... Thought it was TalkBass.
 
But my original post said "with C and Bb in the melody".... not just blowing.

Again, I agree, always be listening. I am just challenging the harmony in that bar. The melody is what the blowing is derived from, is it not?


You are the one who responded to my original post... Thought it was TalkBass.
OK, then.
Thanks for your interest.
 
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I took crd's advice and sang the tune while walking in two and have updated my chart accordingly. Thanks for the suggestion, it was a wise one. Here's what I got:

View attachment 7000128
Looks pretty good! A few questions, out of curiosity:

m. 10 - why did you decide to remove the D7(b13)?
m. 14 - why C7sus and not C13?
m. 30 - same thing, but there is an E in the melody, implying a regular-old dominant
 
Looks pretty good! A few questions, out of curiosity:

m. 10 - why did you decide to remove the D7(b13)?
m. 14 - why C7sus and not C13?
m. 30 - same thing, but there is an E in the melody, implying a regular-old dominant
I decided to simplify the chords to permit the harmony player to "season" them the way they like. I find it creates more interest for me if they have more freedom and play something different than I expect. I like to be surprised.
 
I decided to simplify the chords to permit the harmony player to "season" them the way they like. I find it creates more interest for me if they have more freedom and play something different than I expect. I like to be surprised.
That works, as long as you can hear and pick out what the chord-player is doing in real time and adjust accordingly. Though, I'd say the G-7 would rub against the D7 pretty hard. That, and a C7sus where it is typical to play C7 would likely cause more harm than good.
 
That works, as long as you can hear and pick out what the chord-player is doing in real time and adjust accordingly. Though, I'd say the G-7 would rub against the D7 pretty hard. That, and a C7sus where it is typical to play C7 would likely cause more harm than good.
Thanks, I agree with you about the C7sus. I'll make it a vanilla C7. But, I'm not following your comment about the G-7 against a D7. Can you elaborate?
 
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