Ampeg B15N 1966 speaker replacement

Yikes,
Since Everett Hull would never have put a "F" on the end of one of his amplifiers, it likely was a D-130, the speaker I have in my B-15N(C) is a D-130F. It's very confusing sorting this stuff out, many of the D-130's over time have been re coned with a D-140F kit. What I think I do know is that the D-130(F) had a copper clad aluminum voice coil, while the D-140(F) had a copper voice coil. So they sound a bit different at the midrange.

Ric, the D-130 (no "F") was a hi-fi speaker, marketed as full range, but that's marketing... Its power rating was around 25 watts, because the voice-coil gap was small for better response and efficiency. Chances of blowing that speaker even in a B-15 would be pretty good.

So while Ampeg may not have wanted to advertise the "F", it's likely what was used... but definitely not painted orange!
 
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OK...so the mid-60's CTS then. The 70's CTS's were darker sounding speakers but they went better with the bigger cabs. But yeah, I'm finding it hard to beat the 60's CTS sound. Deltas sound extremely close to my ears, but those CTS's from back then are really good.

If you have occasion to hold one of those speakers in your hands, notice how stiff the cone is. That's why the highs are more prominent, I think. Definitely not the way most BG speakers are made, with the ribbing.
 
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If you have occasion to hold one of those speakers in your hands, notice how stiff the cone is. That's why the highs are more prominent, I think. Definitely not the way most BG speakers are made, with the ribbing.
Well mine is a recone, but come to think of it, it felt pretty stiff in the hand. Which is how I like it but I digress.

:D
 
AG,
Thank's for verifying that for me, I thought that was the case. I do know that Ampeg had some issues with blown D130's at least that's the story I heard. But that was so long ago, who knows. According to the JBL Spec's for the D-130F I can find, it was rated at 25 watts.

According to Ampeg:"The Story Behind the Sound. Ampeg used the JBL D-130F"
 
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Great article, so my D-130F's power rating is 35-60watts. I'm assuming that's well within the safe zone, with my B-15N(C) the has a power output of

25-30 Watts RMS? The thing I notice is that since a D-130F is a full range speaker, it sounds better with a Double Bass than the D-140F. Just my take however.
 
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Great article, so my D-130F's power rating is 35-60watts. I'm assuming that's well within the safe zone, with my B-15N(C) the has a power output of

25-30 Watts RMS? The thing I notice is that since a D-130F is a full range speaker, it sounds better with a Double Bass than the D-140F. Just my take however.

Wattage ratings are determined by a combination of mechanical and electrical testing, and in some cases by marketing, or a decree from on high. They drive them till they blow to gather data. The published ratings can be subjective, conservative ones are best. A lot of D-130’s and D-140’s have been reconed, this changes some specs and makes things complicated to fully understand.

Your ears are the best guage as to how well it does in a particular cab. So playing experience with the speaker counts for a lot.
 
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Yikes,
Since Everett Hull would never have put a "F" on the end of one of his amplifiers, it likely was a D-130, the speaker I have in my B-15N(C) is a D-130F. It's very confusing sorting

this stuff out, many of the D-130's over time have been re coned with a D-140F kit. What I think I do know is that the D-130(F) had a copper clad aluminum voice coil, while the D-140(F) had

a copper voice coil. So they sound a bit different at the midrange.

Not really confusing, but I went through the JBL recone school back in the very early 1980's and we learned quite a bit about the history.

JBL wouldn't sell the original D-130 into the MI market due to the high number of failures, there was a white paper regarding de-rating of speakers driven into distortion which is the norm for MI speakers. The D-130 was a very short wound voice coil with a short bobbin and a soft spider with a (doped) paper surround, not a good choice for a bass guitar speaker. Virtually every D-130 used in the MI world was the F variant.

You can't recone a D-130 with an F kit and get the same performance as the F variant. The magnetic gap width is different which was part of the problem with reliability... it was too tight for the thermally unstable paper bobbins at that time.

The D-130F had an aluminum VC, not copper clad. Some of the aftermarket recone kits use copper clad or plated wire, some even use copper wire, and also use round wire rather than edge wound ribbon, but this is because it's cheaper to assemble and bond to.

The D-140F as well as the 2220 used copper ribbon wire, the 2220 used a cone very similar (if not identical) to the D-130F but with a paper dust cap

AG,
Thank's for verifying that for me, I thought that was the case. I do know that Ampeg had some issues with blown D130's at least that's the story I heard. But that was so long ago, who knows. According to the JBL Spec's for the D-130F I can find, it was rated at 25 watts.

According to Ampeg:"The Story Behind the Sound. Ampeg used the JBL D-130F"

The original D-130 would be rated to about 25 watts RMS by today's standards from about 40Hz on up, but from say 80Hz on up the power rating improved to almost 50 watts RMS. This is because of the mechanical limitations of the suspension components as well as the imprecise methods of cabinet design combined with low damping factor tube amps.

The D-130F increased the power rating to roughly 100 watts continuous average power, but this is deceiving because for musical instrument applications there is a 50% derating required. Still, it's about double that of the original model. This is guitar applications though, where the low frequency limit was ~80Hz. As frequency decreases, so does the power handling. Used to 40Hz, the original limitations (more or less) still applies.

The D-140 power handling was increased to roughly 150 watts continuous average power but did not need the derating for frequencies below 80Hz which made it a much better choice for higher powered bass guitar applications. They did still need the derating for musical instrument applications however which made this a solid 75 watt "RMS" driver and would hold up ok with more power if the amp was not overdriven or no compression was used.

You have to remember that back then amps were pretty small by today's standards, it was uncommon to have enough rig for the gig so amps were often overdriven in general.
 
Not really confusing, but I went through the JBL recone school back in the very early 1980's and we learned quite a bit about the history.

JBL wouldn't sell the original D-130 into the MI market due to the high number of failures, there was a white paper regarding de-rating of speakers driven into distortion which is the norm for MI speakers. The D-130 was a very short wound voice coil with a short bobbin and a soft spider with a (doped) paper surround, not a good choice for a bass guitar speaker. Virtually every D-130 used in the MI world was the F variant.

You can't recone a D-130 with an F kit and get the same performance as the F variant. The magnetic gap width is different which was part of the problem with reliability... it was too tight for the thermally unstable paper bobbins at that time.

The D-130F had an aluminum VC, not copper clad. Some of the aftermarket recone kits use copper clad or plated wire, some even use copper wire, and also use round wire rather than edge wound ribbon, but this is because it's cheaper to assemble and bond to.

The D-140F as well as the 2220 used copper ribbon wire, the 2220 used a cone very similar (if not identical) to the D-130F but with a paper dust cap



The original D-130 would be rated to about 25 watts RMS by today's standards from about 40Hz on up, but from say 80Hz on up the power rating improved to almost 50 watts RMS. This is because of the mechanical limitations of the suspension components as well as the imprecise methods of cabinet design combined with low damping factor tube amps.

The D-130F increased the power rating to roughly 100 watts continuous average power, but this is deceiving because for musical instrument applications there is a 50% derating required. Still, it's about double that of the original model. This is guitar applications though, where the low frequency limit was ~80Hz. As frequency decreases, so does the power handling. Used to 40Hz, the original limitations (more or less) still applies.

The D-140 power handling was increased to roughly 150 watts continuous average power but did not need the derating for frequencies below 80Hz which made it a much better choice for higher powered bass guitar applications. They did still need the derating for musical instrument applications however which made this a solid 75 watt "RMS" driver and would hold up ok with more power if the amp was not overdriven or no compression was used.

You have to remember that back then amps were pretty small by today's standards, it was uncommon to have enough rig for the gig so amps were often overdriven in general.

Great information Aged Horse, thank you so much for coming on the thread, this pretty well covers it for me. My B-15N(C) has a re coned JBL-D-130F. Since there is virtually no way to tell which kit was used for the re-cone, I'll never know what was used.

I do know that it sounds wonderful in the B-15N(C) Portaflex cabinet. Since I only play this amplifier on rare occasions outside of my music room, I've very careful about not overdriving the amp or speaker.
 
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There's no easy way to know what parts are used without tearing it apart which is impractical. There are some clues but that takes a lot of experience, but it's safe to assume that virtually all recones these days use aftermarket parts. There are a few good parts but most a re pretty poor IME. They will make sound and work ok, but will sound very different when compared with the originals.

Also, I should note that JBL switched to Kapton bobbins on all of their drivers probably in the late 1970's or early 1980's, this greatly improved reliability because the kapton was more dimensionally stable under thermal cycling events and did not blister like the paper would (especially in high humidity conditions).
 
My 65 has a D140F which was listed as factory when I bought the amp, though who knows if it really was given that it's 50+ years old and certainly not coming from the original owner. The old product literature doesn't seem to say anything about specific speakers they offered, I wonder if it's in the ampeg book?

Anywho, between the two double baffles I've owned I've tried an altec 421A, JBL D140F, JBL K140, eminence beta, eminence delta, and a reconed CTS. I felt like the eminence beta was my preference for a modern driver over the delta, it seemed closest to the CTS drivers I had. The JBL have their own flavor.

Great info thanks so much!
 
I have the original CTS, which I pulled for safety ... and have now a D140 reconed by Weber ... and plan on putting in a really nice original 421 I just got - a "B" I was told but don't know for sure.

The D140 has a really nice break up on the lower notes - Jamerson-Like ... but I'm curious about the 421, and wonder where I might find PLANS to build a "matching cabinet? Anyone know? ...

EDIT ... Just found Vintage Blue ... So I'm mostly set ... now to find $800 ...
 
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My '66 has a Jensen EM-1550 with a 1966 date code. I know the amp's history back to 1970, so it was either original or an early replacement.

I believe they did stock the Jensen speakers around that time, may have been used to keep up with production if CTS couldn't supply the numbers they needed. I had a 67 G15 which came with a Jensen MI-150, the amp was pretty much stock (and full of decades of dust) when I got it, including a bunch of ampeg branded tubes and the warranty card attached to the bottom. Date code on the speaker puts it a 50th week of 66, which matches up well with the May 67 delivery date on the warranty card.

The dating/model chart here for Jensen speakers shows the MI-150/EM-1500 as a bass speaker, the LMI-155/EM-1550 as a guitar/accordion speaker.

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I just replaced a 1964 CTS with this:

HEMPOPOTAMUS LOUDspeakers SUPERIOR HEMP SPEAKERS FOR GUITAR &HOME HI-FI

The model I received has a silver cap and seems to have a few design updates since the photos were taken. My CTS must need a recone or something... it's not smooth by anyone's definition. This new speaker puts out an amazing amount of low end for a B15; it actually was impressive with a 5-string. This speaker does the "cushion of air" thing I'm always chasing, tight and punchy. It's warm and really fat in the low end, doesn't bark or offend and manages to also sound "vintage". It might be a couple dBs less sensitive than my CTS because I'm turning up a clock-face number higher than I usually do, but who cares, it's SO CLEAN at noon and probably won't start breaking up till 1:00.

I'm not 100% I love the upper midrange yet, but I just played it for an hour and was all smiles. The B15 is a 1964-65 era with double baffle.

300 watts, 8Ω. Crazy low end. I'm impressed.
 
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I just replaced a 1964 CTS with this:

HEMPOPOTAMUS LOUDspeakers SUPERIOR HEMP SPEAKERS FOR GUITAR &HOME HI-FI

The model I received has a silver cap and seems to have a few design updates since the photos were taken. My CTS must need a recone or something... it's not smooth by anyone's definition. This new speaker puts out an amazing amount of low end for a B15; it actually was impressive with a 5-string. This speaker does the "cushion of air" thing I'm always chasing. It's warm and really fat in the low end, doesn't bark or offend and manages to also sound "vintage". I'm not 100% I love the upper midrange yet, but I just played it for an hour and was all smiles. The B15 is a 1964-65 era with double baffle.

300 watts, 8Ω. Crazy low end. I'm impressed.
Looks like a good speaker but I don't know if I could take a speaker that has 32 hz as its -10db point.
 
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Looks like a good speaker but I don't know if I could take a speaker that has 32 hz as its -10db point.
Where are you seeing the -10dB point figure? I can't find that in the literature. If you're implying that this speaker is bass-shy... it ain't!
 
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Where are you seeing the -10dB point figure? I can't find that in the literature. If you're implying that this speaker is bass-shy... it ain't!
Not at all! I'm saying that it seems very bass heavy! Anyway, when companies list their frequency range, the lowest usable frequency is measured at -10db as something of an industry standard, and that speaker says 32 hz is its lowest usable frequency, which is crazy low.
 
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