Double Bass Arco technique basic question

[BassplayerMF]

Hello fellow bassist,

I am a professional bass player, playing double bass and electric mainly jazz, some pop and afrobeat.
My achilles heel on the double bass has always been my arco technique.
I can feel very comfortable playing or recording with a band and the moment someone asks me to play a passage with the bow I start to get uncomfortable.
Then a whole cycle of feeling uncomfortable which leads to even worse arco playing which leads to more stress etc starts.

Long story short, I have avoided it long enough and decided this has to change. I started practicing with the bow again.
Really basic stuff, slow tempo scales with long notes, string crossings etc.

Thirst thing I noticed today is that when playing open strings on the G string it sounds the worst. Either it takes long to get a solid fundamental tone or squeaky overtones develop. But mostly the fundamental takes to long. Any experienced players can guess what that might be? Not enough pressure or speed on the bow?

The second question would be more general, what basic exercises would you recommend to do daily with the bow, maybe a 20 minute exercise window?
I for sure have some Simandl and fun things like that laying around somewhere but I`m curious if any of you have other suggestions.

Hope you all have a great day and take care

 

[jallenbass]

Think about bow placement between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard first. Find the spot for each note that gets the best sound without any weight other than the weight of the bow. Hold the bow as if it were an egg fresh out of the carton. You don't want to crush it. What kind of rosin do you use?

 

[jj.833]

Steel strings are generally more squeaky on open G than synthetic.
Technique: you want to be able to start the tone with a smooth, yet authoritative enough bow 'poke'. I don't think this can be effectively described online, but you'll find lot of videos on youtube dealing with this issue from people who believe otherwise. I'd suggest to get a teacher for a few lessons... as you are professional, you surely know the value of your time spent on inventing invented.
I think I got the ability to rightly start the tone only when I started to learn my first classical orchestral piece.

 

[BassplayerMF]

Think about bow placement between the bridge and the end of the fingerboard first. Find the spot for each note that gets the best sound without any weight other than the weight of the bow. Hold the bow as if it were an egg fresh out of the carton. You don't want to crush it. What kind of rosin do you use?

thanks for your inputs. I will try some of your suggestions, I think I used to put too much weight/pressure on for sure in fear of the not getting the note so start properly. But I started to discover that a lighter touch is helpful for some of my issues. So some of your suggestions are spot on I guess.

Rosinwise I use currently use one from a company called Petz from Austria, I think its soft or extra soft. The trickier bit is probably that I use „synthetic gut“ strings which are not the easiest to bow, I have an easier time when I try it on someone elses instrument that has steel strings on. But I don´t expect to become the soloist for the local symphony rather just get comfortable with and a decent tone I like with the bow for the arco passages I play.

Steel strings are generally more squeaky on open G than synthetic.
Technique: you want to be able to start the tone with a smooth, yet authoritative enough bow 'poke'. I don't think this can be effectively described online, but you'll find lot of videos on youtube dealing with this issue from people who believe otherwise. I'd suggest to get a teacher for a few lessons... as you are professional, you surely know the value of your time spent on inventing invented.
I think I got the ability to rightly start the tone only when I started to learn my first classical orchestral piece.

Thank you too. As mentioned, I use synthetic gut at the moment so yes, not the easiest. I´ll work on it, of course theres a tone of info on youtube etc, just wanted to ask here because I dig this forum and maybe some of you have some ideas I wasn´t thinking about.
And for the teacher thing, of course that´s always a great thing. I want to put some basic work into it thirst, like just try to dedicate maybe 15 minutes of my daily practice to the bow and then see where it gets me after two months or so

 

[MuseChaser]

It's a delicate dance, balancing all the things that go towards creating the tone(s) you're after. In no particular order ..

1. Angle of bow stick to string (perpendicular or slightly angled?)
2. Stick slightly rolled away from the bridge, rather than directly over the hair, allowing the hair to be "feathered" in when playing lightly, but still able to maintain full hair contact when playing with more weight
3. Bow speed vs weight on bow... Fast bow speeds with light weight usually result in a glassy, ethereal sound, while slow bow speeds with too much weight end up being gritty, harsh, and unsteady.
4. Amount and hardness of rosin.
5. Condition of bow hair
6. Cleanliness of strings...rosin buildup?
7. Bow grip...relaxed and flexible, thumb and fingers naturally curved rather than "locked?"
8. Arm weight.
9. Relaxed right shoulder. Lots of folks raise it instinctively, creating a ton of tension and problems, and robbing the bow of natural arm weight.
10. "Sound point" - where on the string, in relation to the bridge and fingerboard, your bow contacts the string. Louder/stronger is usually closer to the bridge, while soft and delicate is usually towards or even slightly over the fingerboard. The sound point will also vary proportionally with the vibrating length of the string; each increasingly higher pitch on a given string will incrementally move the sound point towards the bridge a proportionate amount to produce the same tone quality

There's so much to it. Practice just drawing a nice, mezzo piano tone on the open D and A strings, where the right arm is at its most natural position. Experiment with everything on the "dance card" above. Get some in-person tips from mire experienced arco players if you can

Have fun!

 

[BassplayerMF]

It's a delicate dance, balancing all the things that go towards creating the tone(s) you're after. In no particular order ..

1. Angle of bow stick to string (perpendicular or slightly angled?)
2. Stick slightly rolled away from the bridge, rather than directly over the hair, allowing the hair to be "feathered" in when playing lightly, but still able to maintain full hair contact when playing with more weight
3. Bow speed vs weight on bow... Fast bow speeds with light weight usually result in a glassy, ethereal sound, while slow bow speeds with too much weight end up being gritty, harsh, and unsteady.
4. Amount and hardness of rosin.
5. Condition of bow hair
6. Cleanliness of strings...rosin buildup?
7. Bow grip...relaxed and flexible, thumb and fingers naturally curved rather than "locked?"
8. Arm weight.
9. Relaxed right shoulder. Lots of folks raise it instinctively, creating a ton of tension and problems, and robbing the bow of natural arm weight.
10. "Sound point" - where on the string, in relation to the bridge and fingerboard, your bow contacts the string. Louder/stronger is usually closer to the bridge, while soft and delicate is usually towards or even slightly over the fingerboard. The sound point will also vary proportionally with the vibrating length of the string; each increasingly higher pitch on a given string will incrementally move the sound point towards the bridge a proportionate amount to produce the same tone quality

There's so much to it. Practice just drawing a nice, mezzo piano tone on the open D and A strings, where the right arm is at its most natural position. Experiment with everything on the "dance card" above. Get some in-person tips from mire experienced arco players if you can

Have fun!

Thank you, thats a nice list on some things to watch out for while practicing. Gonna have that in sight for my next sessions. I think 9. is critical, stress probably raises my shoulder as well. plus I kind of changed my bass playing position which for pizzicato I accustomed to pretty naturally but with the bow it´s another thing.


Thank you!

 

[crd]

Hello fellow bassist,

I am a professional bass player, playing double bass and electric mainly jazz, some pop and afrobeat.
My achilles heel on the double bass has always been my arco technique.
I can feel very comfortable playing or recording with a band and the moment someone asks me to play a passage with the bow I start to get uncomfortable.
Then a whole cycle of feeling uncomfortable which leads to even worse arco playing which leads to more stress etc starts.

Long story short, I have avoided it long enough and decided this has to change. I started practicing with the bow again.
Really basic stuff, slow tempo scales with long notes, string crossings etc.

Thirst thing I noticed today is that when playing open strings on the G string it sounds the worst. Either it takes long to get a solid fundamental tone or squeaky overtones develop. But mostly the fundamental takes to long. Any experienced players can guess what that might be? Not enough pressure or speed on the bow?

The second question would be more general, what basic exercises would you recommend to do daily with the bow, maybe a 20 minute exercise window?
I for sure have some Simandl and fun things like that laying around somewhere but I`m curious if any of you have other suggestions.

Hope you all have a great day and take care

The basics are kind of all there is. I don't think anyone gets beyond practicing the fundamentals.

I start each practice session with ten minutes on the open G string, just trying to make a beautiful sound. I then do ten minutes with a metronome on sixty bpms playing whole notes a measure per bow. First 4/4 then 4/6 then 4/8 etc.

Open strings are the hardest to control with the bow. I really like the first half on the Stretcher method book that is all open strings with dynamics and different bowings. The only generalities you can make about arco technique are stay relaxed and keep the contact point of hair and string at 90 degrees. It is definitely worth it to take some lessons with a local symphony bassist. Don't despair the more time you spend with the bow in your hand the better you'll sound. I don't think it is inherently more difficult than pizz, it's just a lot of us spend a lot less time with a bow in our hand's than we do plucking.

 

[notabene]

A while ago I put,( by way of Sibelius, (the program, not the composer)), for playback, 2 octave diatonic scales in all major keys with the arco bass instrument sounds. Playing arco, at different trmpos, with the playbacks has helped my intonation greatly, and pretty much totally eliminated conscious thought about what I am doing. For me, automatically, thoughtlessly, playing the right pitches is goal worthy. Eliminating the "middleman" ie consciousness, is wonderful.

 

[Bruce Calin]

A capable teacher could tell you very quickly if there were any significant problems with your basic approach to bowing. It would save you a lot of time and get you on the right path much sooner.

 

[Tom Lane]

I echo the recommendation to get a few lessons with a competent teacher. I will add, though, that Lynn Seaton has a great way of introducing the factors involved with an acronym - WASP - weight, angle, speed, and placement. Experimenting with those four dimensions will get you in the ballpark but there are enough challenges that a teacher really is the way to go. One common challenge is changing direction and we kind of transition the direction. With a bit of practice and a few lessons, I'd expect you to be able to draw a pleasing tone for a ballad pretty well. Swinging bop lines is going to take a lot longer.

 

[Don Hergert]

... WASP - weight, angle, speed, and placement. ...

As someone also trying to improve arco chops on synthetic strings, I thank you for that. I tried it during practice today and it seems like the essence for me right now. Very helpful!

 

[jallenbass]

Rosinwise I use currently use one from a company called Petz from Austria, I think its soft or extra soft. The trickier bit is probably that I use „synthetic gut“ strings which are not the easiest to bow, I have an easier time when I try it on someone elses instrument that has steel strings on.

Give Kolstein All-Weather rosin a try. I've not tried that particular version of Petz but I was never able to get a good sound with what I tried by that company.

 

[Wasnex]

You should probably think of the bow as sort of it's own instrument.

Technique, bass, string choice, bow, bow hair, and rosin are all factors. If the bass or strings are not well suited to arco, you need a lot more skill and finesse.

Technique involves multiple factors that you need to adjust depending upon what you are playing and the type of sound you are trying to produce. A good teacher can observe and help you correct, but the trick is practicing to the point where you make the necessary changes intuitively. It's not enough to master bow technique...you must practice in order to maintain the necessary touch and proficiency.

Often you really need to coax a good bowed sound out of the instrument rather than trying to force it. It takes time to figure and develop the necessary skills.

Some basses with the right string combination are very easy to bow. However, some feel that an instrument and string combination that requires a bit of finesse is more expressive.

 

[evanrunyon]

Someone’s already mentioned the SWAP (or WASP, or PAWS, or whatever) acronym as the components of bowing; speed, weight, angle and placement.

The first thing I do with beginners is generally to see if they can leverage the weight and torque of their right arm to “wiggle” the string with the bow at frog and tip. That is, can they slightly move the string back and forth without activating a note. Most importantly, can they do it without contorting their body, raising a shoulder, or otherwise tensing up. Build from there—it’s a long process, so watch lots of video and try to find someone with a great right arm you can work with in person.

To paraphrase one of my more colorful teachers, the left hand is what stresses everyone out, but it’s the right that actually makes the sound.

There’s a thousand good exercises/etudes out there, but specifically I like two Albert Laszlo exercises (“Around the Dial” and the “Slow Bow Drill”) that I find are sort of lifelong pursuits, valuable for beginner and expert alike. I’m sure you can find the score and a video of them out there, but if you DM me I’m happy to write em up and do a casual demo video.

 

[groooooove]

getting a good sound can be tricky.

doing it is more important than what your doing. as you advance, tricky orchestral excerpts will be useful. but for now, just playing any easy repertoire you can is perfectly good.

make sure your grip is a functional one (many options) and aim for a perpendicular hair/string situation - especially when your up-bows get close to the frog, it's common for the tip of the bow to dip towards the floor.

bass players have the unique challenge of jazz vs classical strings. whatever you are using, if you need a hybrid make sure you play on a hybrid.

 

[Mark Karwan]

Hi, I can really identify with your situation.

I recommend “a contemporary concept of bowing technique for the double bass,” by Zimmermann. Especially the introductory portion, it was incredibly helpful to me in breaking the literal “nervous tension” pattern that you described. The exercises from the introductory portion would be a fabulous addition to any arco warm-up routine.

As a fellow doubler who really wants to be excellent with the bow but plays a wide enough variety of gigs to not “need” it all the time, I would say you are REALLY on the right track with the idea of developing a short but meaningful arco practice routine. If you use your bow even 10 minutes a day the confidence will be come.

If you can take even one or two lessons with the “best” arco player or orchestral bassist in your town/county/state, that will help a lot.

Consider also that mental state that arises when you bow. Can you notice if you are holding your breath, and becoming tense/apprehensive overall? Can you undo some of that tension? If you live in an area with a reputable Alexander Technique instructor you might consider a course of ten lessons with them.


Have fun. Bass is the best, and for those of us who play a lot of electric, bowing is like a secret superpower.

 

[LouisF]

I use Petz #2 or #3 (depending on the weather) and sometimes Petz premium (especially for heavy orchestral work) on plain gut GDA (arco exclusively). I have used synthetics in the past (Supersensitive, Heritage, Superior Bassworks Dirty guts etc) and I think the following applies: 1) a little Petz goes a long way; 2) don't squeeze the bow or choke the string by using too much pressure (which would be fine with steel strings). A faster bow, with a looser grip and more arm weight, IMO gets a better result.

There is a lot of good advice in the posts above, especially getting a lesson or two with a teacher. Hope this adds to the experience.

 

[Bruce Calin]

One of the things that got me to try Petz was the drawing on the container of the bear playing the bass. I haven't used it in a while and I understand they've changed the picture?

 

[LouisF]

The Bear is still there (slightly hidden in the image), Bruce. I know Genssler suggests (or did at one time) that players using his strings use Petz Premium. The folks at Quantum and Contrabass Shoppe were both very enthusiastic about #2 and#3.

Truth be told I still get looks when I use it in a section, like "I haven't that since high school" and then I offer to share and they try it and shut up.

 

[Bruce Calin]

The Bear is still there (slightly hidden in the image), Bruce. I know Genssler suggests (or did at one time) that players using his strings use Petz Premium. The folks at Quantum and Contrabass Shoppe were both very enthusiastic about #2 and#3.

Truth be told I still get looks when I use it in a section, like "I haven't that since high school" and then I offer to share and they try it and shut up.

Thanks for the tip, Louis, I'm using the tempera Hybrids now and should give it a try. It's been years. I don't recall why I changed- probably a sales pitch.