Double Bass Are Kay basses really worth it?

Matthew J Davis

Matthew J Davis

Mar 11, 2023
40
24
676
57
Santa Rosa CA
#1
I am a long time pro Fender/bass guitar player who started studying upright (double) bass about 3.5 years ago. I started getting called for upright gigs about 18 months ago. I own a nice carved bass with steel strings that sounds gorgeous bowed and pizz. (jazz, folk, western swing). I also on a plywood Christopher bass with synthetic gut strings that I play on my many outdoor gigs with a Folk/Americana/Bluegrass band. I dont love it. I only paid $1200 for it. I usually play both basses through my Genzler Magellan 800 Bass Array. Sometimes I use my Acoustic Image Contra Amp. I have a Shertdler pickup and pre amp. Everyone I talk to (non bass player musicians) says I need to get a Kay and put gut strings on it. The old ones run $2750 -$4000 around here and real gut strings are about $500 a set it would seem. My question is this....Is it really worth it? Or are there less expensive alternatives that sound just as good (or better) for Bluegrass / Folk / Country music. There are a few Kay's for sale at a store about a 2 hour drive from me. When I get a chance I am going to go play/demo them and see for myself.
 
#3
Kays are cool, but often folks get wrapped up in the nostalgia instead of looking at the bass itself.

Kay basses were mass produced for schools and working musicians and the necks were engineered poorly - nearly always breaking at the heel. There is a certain sound associated with a Kay that is desirable to some, but I’ve found that most folks suggest ’Getting a Kay’ because it’s the only brand they know of.

That being said, there are many that sound great and will serve you well - I have a ‘54 that I’ve gigged to death and greatly enjoy. It comes down to what you want to pay. If you’re looking at dropping up to $4k I’d suggest trying to find an American Standard - they do suffer from the same poor neck engineering, but are superior in virtually every other category.

Let us know how it goes though!
 
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#4
Value is in the eye of the buyer. If you wait and hunt long enough you can find one cheap (maybe?) and get someone to turn it into a monster, but setup is everything and usually the setups are jive AF. Judge each Kay on an individual case by case basis.
 
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#5
Sure, a Kay will work. So will a number of other laminate basses. Kays have thin necks, which you might not like if you are used to a chunkier neck. My '46 Kay has a shim under the fingerboard to make the neck chunkier, which I feel is an improvement.

Gut are THE SOUND for a lot of vintage music, but are a hassle. They don't stay in tune and (for me) deteriorate quickly. And of course they are expensive. There are a number of alternatives that can get you close enough to the sound. Many are nylon wrapped and thus don't work for arco unfortunately. I've been using Innovation Golden Slaps.
 
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#6
EdwardofHuncote said:
The greatest enemy of truth is not the lie, but the myth.

I love a good old Kay bass. I own a couple, and one Englehardt too. They can be a nice, viable, gigable instrument when properly set up.
Click to expand...

And, being plywood, they are not prone to the environmental conditions that can wreck havoc on carved uprights…I also own a 90s Engelhardt M1 and a 40s Kay M1…do your research before you buy…
 
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#7
I've acquired 3 Kays over the years and was happier to see them go than when they arrived. ... I paid as little as $80 for one and as much as $350 for another. ... I only hear a flat, tubby sound from Kay basses, regardless the model. They were very inexpensive basses to begin with. ...
Gut strings are a pain, they're expensive, they constantly need tuning, they break or slowly unravel plus your action needs to be raised to get the most out of them. ...
The instrument comes with it's own challenges and playing with an inferior instrument only adds to them.
If you're happy with the set up you have, stick with it. ...
I have a 60-year old carved with a Wilson pickup, through a Bassbone preamp into an Aguilar 350 TH with light Thomasic Spirocores and it ain't going anywhere. ...
Though, I am planning to be curled up and buried in it but, I won't have the last say, so that's up to my wife.
 
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#8
My ‘48 M-1 has been my #1 breadwinner for almost a quarter century now. It plays & sounds better than ever since I put an Evah Pirazzi Gold/Slap set on with plain gut D & G.
I didn’t go out looking for a Kay - I just tried a bunch in a shop and this was my second favorite and I could afford it.
I’m not necessarily a Kay endorser, but this particular one had some mojo. And there’s definitely something to be said for having a good plywood workhorse.
 
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#10
I don't own a Kay but I'm active in the bluegrass circles on the west coast USA, and my observation at least in this area is that Kays and other vintage American made double basses are popular, but so are a lot of other double basses.

I've also seen a lot of Asian and European, ply and carved double basses in bluegrass, and I get the impression that if a person's double bass is well setup for acoustic sound and if that person can handle it well, people will be happy the bass is there. I even occasionally get appreciation with my Alcoa.

I don't get the impression that gut strings are that popular out here. A lot of other strings are more often used; gut strings are a definite minority.

There is a natural appreciation for vintage American made instruments in bluegrass, but it's not necessarily a requirement.
 
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#12
I've owned three Kays - all well-set up, though not with neck re-sets, etc. My last was a '51 blonde that I bought from the first owner. Pristine. I played that for about 20 years, at a time when I wasn't playing very much. About 10 years ago I started playing much more - often two or three gigs per week. The thin neck of the Kay got to me, causing fatigue and discomfort. I ordered a full ply 7/8ths from Upton and sold the Kay. Never regretted the decision. Most often, people want the "classic" vibe of a Kay; in my experience it is not because of the playability or sound.
 
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#14
I have two Kays (‘52 and ‘54) that both play well and sound good but they each required a lot of work to get there. That said, I’m into each for around $2,200 so considerably less than the prices you’re seeing.

I don’t think there’s anything magical about these basses. There’s nothing they offer that another, probably better made, bass wouldn’t.

I string one with Corelli 370 -about as far from gut as you could imagine. I strung the other with Obligatos for a while and now use Evah Pirazzi weich. The Obligatos got pretty close to a gut sound, IMO.
 
#15
What do you "not love" about your Christopher? Like someone said above, a good setup and gut strings might change your mind. Is it the neck profile? The sound? Something else?

Have you played Kays? What do YOU think of them - compared to your Christopher? And how important is the cost to you?

My main gigging bass is a newer Englehart w/ EP guts. I've tried to convince myself to switch it for a Kay, but I've played hundreds and never found one that was worth spending $3k to upgrade from my $1k beater. IMO, mine is essentially a newer Kay. As a general matter, old plywood is not necessarily better plywood. Many old basses have distorted plates and open seams, just from age (and abuse.)

Just saying, there are many very good Kays. And many that are really crappy to play AND hear. If you want to go that route, you just have to commit to playing every one you come across, and ponying up the bucks when you hit the one that really speaks to you. The other alternative is to buy whatever Kay you find that you can afford, and hope your luthier can make it into something special. But that has never been an approach that appealed to me.

I switched from Innovations to EP guts - and have never looked back. But we recently saw one of my favorite local bassists, and he had Weedwackers on his Kay. I personally don't care for the extremely low tension, but he was getting an incredible tone out of that combination.
 
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#16
Matthew J Davis said:
I am a long time pro Fender/bass guitar player who started studying upright (double) bass about 3.5 years ago. I started getting called for upright gigs about 18 months ago. I own a nice carved bass with steel strings that sounds gorgeous bowed and pizz. (jazz, folk, western swing). I also on a plywood Christopher bass with synthetic gut strings that I play on my many outdoor gigs with a Folk/Americana/Bluegrass band. I dont love it. I only paid $1200 for it. I usually play both basses through my Genzler Magellan 800 Bass Array. Sometimes I use my Acoustic Image Contra Amp. I have a Shertdler pickup and pre amp. Everyone I talk to (non bass player musicians) says I need to get a Kay and put gut strings on it. The old ones run $2750 -$4000 around here and real gut strings are about $500 a set it would seem. My question is this....Is it really worth it? Or are there less expensive alternatives that sound just as good (or better) for Bluegrass / Folk / Country music. There are a few Kay's for sale at a store about a 2 hour drive from me. When I get a chance I am going to go play/demo them and see for myself.
Click to expand...
Unless it’s one of those gigs where the band is protected by chicken wire from flying beer bottles (I’ve played a few of those!), play your gorgeous sounding carved bass, indoors or out. You’ll sound better, play better, and have more fun. I played a very fragile mid-1800’s Tyrolean on all my gigs for 40 years. There were a few “incidents,” but carved basses are not as fragile as you think and needn’t be babied, in my opinion. Life is too short! I never heard or played a Kay that I didn’t want to run away from (unless of course it was Dennis Irwin or Neal Miner playing it!) On the other hand, I love old Fender guitars and basses…
 
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#17
Some of the greatest double basses I've ever tried have borne the Kay badge.

Also some of the worst.

Driving 2 hours to demo some sounds like a good idea to me.

I had to drive 8 hours to try mine out. Then they insisted I come back 2 weeks later to pick it up after they gave it their full setup. That was a nuisance - but it hasn't needed another shop visit in 25 years. That's actually pretty amazing; no other musical item I've used has held up anywhere near that long.
 
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#19
statsc said:
Unless it’s one of those gigs where the band is protected by chicken wire from flying beer bottles (I’ve played a few of those!), play your gorgeous sounding carved bass, indoors or out. You’ll sound better, play better, and have more fun. I played a very fragile mid-1800’s Tyrolean on all my gigs for 40 years. There were a few “incidents,” but carved basses are not as fragile as you think and needn’t be babied, in my opinion. Life is too short!
Click to expand...
I like this advice, but I think you over generalized on the last point. The fragility of carved basses probably varies by orders of magnitude.
 
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#20
I have a 20-some year old Engelhardt C1, and I have been presently surprised over the years at how much fun it is to play both arco and pizz. That said, I wouldn’t pay the prices I’ve seen for Kay. I should also add that I don’t like the thin neck on my Engelhardt, and I would not have liked to learn to bow on it either. Fortunately, I already had decent arco chops from taking lessons and playing classical music in college, where I had access to two nice carved basses.
 
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