The only time I allow ANY Chinese made instruments into my shop is if the person is a pretty cool local that I already know from the community or they look good in a skirt, so I don't see very many of them and cannot properly answer your question.
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Double Bass Are Kay basses really worth it?
- Thread starter Matthew J Davis
- Start date
I suppose you could make one out of kevlar if that was your main criteria.
Like everything, there are exceptions to the rule, and Kay screwed up once in a while and made a good sounding bass, making that the exception, not the rule. Most are pretty dead unless you put some really expensive strings on, and they only help so much. They are perfect however for slapping and where a thud and thump is part of the style, they do quite well. They used to be inexpensive but have reached iconic "collectable" status and now command prices comparable to a carved top or fully carved instrument. Of course, there are several models/grades of the Kays, but there is no guarantee that the better model will sound any better than the cheapest model, it is the luck of the draw. Kay had issues with all their instruments' neck joint: most of them fail over time and need to be re-set. This is the result of mass production and quantity over quality as they were primarily for beginners and student musical programs. Cost and labor was kept to a minimum to make them affordable and competitive with other entry level brands. You will however find ones that have been repaired and upgraded by a good luthier that play very well, and some also, if you are lucky, sound great. So it is no wonder that a good sounding one will bring more money, mainly because most do not sound that good. Fortunately, in bluegrass, sustain and tone are not that critical for the bass, and gut strings do not have the power or sustain of steel strings, so the reduced response of a laminated is not necessarily a drawback, and can be an asset. For example, ply basses are less resonant in general, and fair better when played amplified as they tend to feedback less. Another benefit of Kay basses is you can paint them up like a hot rod and it does not affect their value, and to some, it is a plus. Try that with a 80 year old Wilfer...sacrilege!
I have to disagree with some of your points, @Jay Mendoza.
I've found that because Kay manufacturing and materials specs were quite uniform over time, response is also consistent given the same setup. Setups vary widely, however, and because these are lower-value instruments they have tended to get less professional attention in that regard.
The idea that Kay basses are "collectible" and commanding high prices is not uncommon, but on close observation I find is generally false. There is no collector market that I've been able to detect. Given the same geographical location, a Kay bass draws maybe twice as much as a comparable Englehardt, half as much as a comparable (but much less common) American Standard, and never mind a decent carved instrument. We have to take care not to confuse asking prices with selling prices; the latter are a fair bit harder to tease out.
The Kay string-shop labor force was large enough to consistently ship over 15 instruments per working day during the company's peak period in the early '50s and averaging around 10 per day over 32 years, making on the order of 57,000 basses and cellos, and Kay was consistently profitable till financial hanky-panky in the late '60s took it down. Compare that production record to any other shop, anywhere. I can imagine that these people were busy, but not that there were too few of them. The company also had enough product diversity that workers would certainly have been moving from station to station and shop to shop to meet swings in demand.
The common Kay neck-joint issue results from one poor design decision (the dovetail joint, and Kay was not its only proponent), slab-cut maple necks (more likely to crack than quartersawn), and the use of cheaper block wood that has not aged well. These decisions were important to achieving retail price points and necessary-quality levels that made the business viable. If Kay had made higher-quality choices, I think it likely that the company would not have done anything like as well with distribution and military contracts and so would not have stayed in the bass business after 1940 or so, and the world of American popular music would look quite different in retrospect. (I would say much the same about Fender a bit later.)
Last, what's true from direct observation is that refinishing a Kay bass reduces its market value by 40-50% on average. That doesn't compare with the loss of value given the same treatment of a carved bass, of course, so it's economically more tolerable for working musicians, particularly where the look of the instrument (and whether you can physically abuse it safely onstage) matters more than how it sounds.
I've found that because Kay manufacturing and materials specs were quite uniform over time, response is also consistent given the same setup. Setups vary widely, however, and because these are lower-value instruments they have tended to get less professional attention in that regard.
The idea that Kay basses are "collectible" and commanding high prices is not uncommon, but on close observation I find is generally false. There is no collector market that I've been able to detect. Given the same geographical location, a Kay bass draws maybe twice as much as a comparable Englehardt, half as much as a comparable (but much less common) American Standard, and never mind a decent carved instrument. We have to take care not to confuse asking prices with selling prices; the latter are a fair bit harder to tease out.
The Kay string-shop labor force was large enough to consistently ship over 15 instruments per working day during the company's peak period in the early '50s and averaging around 10 per day over 32 years, making on the order of 57,000 basses and cellos, and Kay was consistently profitable till financial hanky-panky in the late '60s took it down. Compare that production record to any other shop, anywhere. I can imagine that these people were busy, but not that there were too few of them. The company also had enough product diversity that workers would certainly have been moving from station to station and shop to shop to meet swings in demand.
The common Kay neck-joint issue results from one poor design decision (the dovetail joint, and Kay was not its only proponent), slab-cut maple necks (more likely to crack than quartersawn), and the use of cheaper block wood that has not aged well. These decisions were important to achieving retail price points and necessary-quality levels that made the business viable. If Kay had made higher-quality choices, I think it likely that the company would not have done anything like as well with distribution and military contracts and so would not have stayed in the bass business after 1940 or so, and the world of American popular music would look quite different in retrospect. (I would say much the same about Fender a bit later.)
Last, what's true from direct observation is that refinishing a Kay bass reduces its market value by 40-50% on average. That doesn't compare with the loss of value given the same treatment of a carved bass, of course, so it's economically more tolerable for working musicians, particularly where the look of the instrument (and whether you can physically abuse it safely onstage) matters more than how it sounds.
All very good points Steven!
+1000 for the effect of people asking outrageous prices for old Kays, but the likely hood of them actually selling at those price points is almost zero.
I'd say that the number one determinate for the dovetail neck is that they were a production guitar company, so they did what they do on guitars. Making the dovetail joint in a production environment actually requires MORE steps to fabricate than just a universally accepted mortise and tenon joint, common on big old German necks from the 20th century.
People who only play classical arco gigs at polite volumes with "proper basses" in listening rooms judging other folks who play at club volumes with a full band in a room packed with hundreds of sweaty rowdy dancing hipsters every weekend and consciously chose plywood basses is like like Tesla owners giving tractor advice!
+1000 for the effect of people asking outrageous prices for old Kays, but the likely hood of them actually selling at those price points is almost zero.
I'd say that the number one determinate for the dovetail neck is that they were a production guitar company, so they did what they do on guitars. Making the dovetail joint in a production environment actually requires MORE steps to fabricate than just a universally accepted mortise and tenon joint, common on big old German necks from the 20th century.
People who only play classical arco gigs at polite volumes with "proper basses" in listening rooms judging other folks who play at club volumes with a full band in a room packed with hundreds of sweaty rowdy dancing hipsters every weekend and consciously chose plywood basses is like like Tesla owners giving tractor advice!
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Undoubtedly true, but I'll submit that the dovetail requires less skill in assembly and the workers were already trained for it, reducing labor cost, the biggest cost component for every manufacturing concern up to the adoption of robots.
As a bluegrass player I strongly disagree with this. It's a stereotype that isn't borne out if you listen to actual good recordings of pretty much ANY bluegrass band, from the notable elders of the genre to today's players. If you listen to crappy recordings, yeah, the bass will sound indistinct and thumpy, whether you're listening to Bix Beiderbecke or Johnny Cash or Miles Davis or Bill Monroe.
I haven't played a large number of Kay basses, but I will say that for cheap basses they seem to punch well above their weight. I don't like the skinny neck.
My first was an old Kay C1 that had already seen better days due to it being super dried out and improperly stored. Laminate chipping off everywhere, etc. but it sounded wonderful. I threw a set of Supernils on there and just played the heck out of it for about 10 years until I had scooped dents in the cheap fingerboard and the top finally delaminated and caved in.
At the time I couldn't afford another old Kay even if I could find one, and new Englehearts were $1600 and up.
I found a new Romanian ply for $900 plus another couple hundred for a proper set up, neck planed, strings, etc. Took a bit for me to get used to the bigger neck but not that long. Had to run thru several kinds of strings before settling on Innovations. Didnt have the tone of the Kay but......now that its been played for almost 15 yrs its opened up really nice. Sounds as good as any other plywood bass to me.
Curious about what you dont like about the Christopher?
It should be fine for what you are doing with it. Especially if you're amplified.
At the time I couldn't afford another old Kay even if I could find one, and new Englehearts were $1600 and up.
I found a new Romanian ply for $900 plus another couple hundred for a proper set up, neck planed, strings, etc. Took a bit for me to get used to the bigger neck but not that long. Had to run thru several kinds of strings before settling on Innovations. Didnt have the tone of the Kay but......now that its been played for almost 15 yrs its opened up really nice. Sounds as good as any other plywood bass to me.
Curious about what you dont like about the Christopher?
It should be fine for what you are doing with it. Especially if you're amplified.
- Aug 7, 2007
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I bought an apartment building in Chicago with the money I made with my Kay bass.
The great ones are exceptionally good.
My beautiful carved bass sits on its stand 50 nights for every single night I grab my Kay.
The great ones are exceptionally good.
My beautiful carved bass sits on its stand 50 nights for every single night I grab my Kay.
I remember when you bought that Romanian ply and wondered how the bass held up. Very well, sounds like.
Unusually for someone in the UK I started on a Kay, borrowed from a local fiddlers organisation. Our town had a large US naval Base for many years, and I don't know if the two Kay basses they had came over via that route somehow.
It was years before I even found out that they were a sought-after instrument with a following, and I still don't quite see what they offer that something like a mid 20th century European ply bass doesn't, and those are still relatively cheap here.
It was years before I even found out that they were a sought-after instrument with a following, and I still don't quite see what they offer that something like a mid 20th century European ply bass doesn't, and those are still relatively cheap here.
Thanks for your reply. I put Realist pickups on both of my double basses recently and that improved the tone of the Christopher plywood bass. I have become more satisfied with it and those Superior Bassworks synthetic gut strings. In fact, one of the western swing bands I play in was the opening act for Asleep At The Wheel last August. t was an outdoor concert (some direct sunlight on the stage), so I played the Christopher plywood bass. The Wheel's upright bass splayer, Huck Johnson, liked the tone and sound of my bass! He is a very very good pro player so his approval is good enough for me. I now like both of my basses. I play the carved one as much as I can and when there is an outdoor gig that is iffy in terms of direct sunlight I bring the Christopher
Just string up one of your carved basses with some guts, or the synthetic guts and crank up the action, then you can go visit "Slap City".
If you must get a Kay, then be prepared to do a lot of shopping and test driving to find a good one; they were inexpensive, mass produced instruments, but every once in a while Kay screwed up and accidentally made a good one! They will never compare to a good sounding solid carved bass however. Kays are very popular due to the amount of them made for schools and students. There are tons of them out there due to many schools closing their music programs and selling them off. The laminate construction makes the corpus (body) virtually crack proof, but you can still easily bust the top or back loose at the edges if you drop them. The neck sets/ dovetail joint is a weak spot on all Kays (basses and guitars included) and many come loose all on their own over time and require a re-set. Also, look closely at the edges of the F-Hole on the bass side to see if they line up; if the side of the F-hole closest to the bass side of the bridge foot is lower than the side of the F-hole near the outside edge of the bass, then the bass bar is either broken or has come un-glued, which results in a collapsed top and is very expensive to repair.
If you must get a Kay, then be prepared to do a lot of shopping and test driving to find a good one; they were inexpensive, mass produced instruments, but every once in a while Kay screwed up and accidentally made a good one! They will never compare to a good sounding solid carved bass however. Kays are very popular due to the amount of them made for schools and students. There are tons of them out there due to many schools closing their music programs and selling them off. The laminate construction makes the corpus (body) virtually crack proof, but you can still easily bust the top or back loose at the edges if you drop them. The neck sets/ dovetail joint is a weak spot on all Kays (basses and guitars included) and many come loose all on their own over time and require a re-set. Also, look closely at the edges of the F-Hole on the bass side to see if they line up; if the side of the F-hole closest to the bass side of the bridge foot is lower than the side of the F-hole near the outside edge of the bass, then the bass bar is either broken or has come un-glued, which results in a collapsed top and is very expensive to repair.
The idea that there are 'good' and 'bad' Kay basses is not uncommon, but consider that these are factory instruments, not luthier made, so their specs, parts and procedures were all standardized from the beginning. Leaving aside damage and modifications, in my experience what makes a Kay bass as 'good' as it's gonna get is a pro setup.
I’ve played two Kay’s in the 45 years I’ve been playing double bass. Both were played for several years each in a traditional bluegrass band. The first was a 1950 M1B. It was an absolute canon of a bass and had the deepest, punchiest tone I’ve ever heard in any bass. Unfortunately, I didn’t own that bass as it belonged to our guitarist. He was offered a Martin guitar that he had his eye on in exchange for the bass. I went on a search to find a replacement that I would own instead. I ended up with a 1952 M1B, very similar to the 1950 that I was no longer playing. I wasn’t quite the sonic match of the other, but I felt it was the best I could do being that I needed a bass quickly, and since Kay was considered the ultimate bluegrass bass. I bought that bass in Houston and used it out there for a couple of years. There were a couple of structural issues that needed addressing, but nothing seemed critical. In 2003 I moved back to my home state of New Jersey, and continued to play that bass in until 2009. I sold it for two reasons. One -while is sounded ok when playing live, it didn’t mic that well and sounded dreadful in the studio.
Two - the structural issues became a huge problem. The laminate on the top started splintering, the back was starting to separate, and the bass bar started coming unglued. all this is probably why it sounded so lousy in the studio. in 2009 i sold it and bought a Chinese hybrid called a Oriente HO-20. it had nowhere near the volume of either of the Kay basses, but what it had was the most beautiful and even tone and was a absolute joy to play. i played that bass for 14 years until i sold it in 2023. I am playing an acoustic bass guitar these days (and loving it).
All this to say that as a bluegrass bass player, I was always chasing that Kay bass sound that everyone says you have to have when the reality is I was at my happiest playing a bass that just sounded good. The best part was that I paid $1400 less for the Oriente than I did for the Kay. Don’t worry about what others say you should have. Play a bass that makes you happy.
Also, in my opinion, the need for gut strings is nonsense. I put a set of D’Addario Helicore’s on my Oriente and they sounded awesome for the 14 years I owned it.
Two - the structural issues became a huge problem. The laminate on the top started splintering, the back was starting to separate, and the bass bar started coming unglued. all this is probably why it sounded so lousy in the studio. in 2009 i sold it and bought a Chinese hybrid called a Oriente HO-20. it had nowhere near the volume of either of the Kay basses, but what it had was the most beautiful and even tone and was a absolute joy to play. i played that bass for 14 years until i sold it in 2023. I am playing an acoustic bass guitar these days (and loving it).
All this to say that as a bluegrass bass player, I was always chasing that Kay bass sound that everyone says you have to have when the reality is I was at my happiest playing a bass that just sounded good. The best part was that I paid $1400 less for the Oriente than I did for the Kay. Don’t worry about what others say you should have. Play a bass that makes you happy.
Also, in my opinion, the need for gut strings is nonsense. I put a set of D’Addario Helicore’s on my Oriente and they sounded awesome for the 14 years I owned it.
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Update....After playing several Kays I have decided to stick with the Christopher for my beater upright bass. A few months ago I purchashed an Audio Sprockets Tonedexter II. After several hours of recording/sampling with my upright teacher Cary Black I have found that the use of the Tonedexter actually improved the amplified tone of the Christopher MORE than my nice carved bass. Both have the same Realist Lifeline pickups. The carved bass has steel strings and the Christpher has low tension BassWorks synthetic (fake) gut strings (or weedwhackers if you like).. I have been using the Christpher a lot. Every band leader I play with likes it though when I get hired for session work that does not require rockabilly type slapping I use the carved bass (It sounds really good with e high quality studio mic). Also, I play four to eight (out of 16-20) gigs per month on Fender Bass. Sometimes ....when I do two gigs in a day both on Fender, my right hand gets sore. After such a day I spend as much time on the Christopher Bass as I can. Those low tension strings feel effortless on my right hand.
