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Sure Gary W does look at his fingerboard a lot. But that does not imply that he needs to, nor than the visual cues are more important to his playing than the aural ones.
As far as I'm concerned I am pretty sure that:
1. If one one shwitch off the lights, he would still play in tune.
2. If one would swtich off his amp (so that he would no longer hear is playing) and send it to a recording device, he would play far less in tune.
But unless he (or someone of his caliber) weighs in to comment on the issue, we won't know for sure.
Anyway, at this point, I seems to me we can safely agree to disagree. There is no unique way to make music, and that is fine so.
I am not trying to start a fight here but I must address some of this. Yes, practice is in front of a mirror, not performance, but seeing how correct hand position and pitch look and sound and feel together helps train muscle memory, so it helps you in so many ways. Another issue that electric players need not worry about is the right hand. Seeing your right hand is critical. There is so much that can go wrong with the bow. Mirrors help train and inform muscle memory but your point is taken.
Now you make the point that one cannot depend upon sight to assist with playing while looking at both music and conductor. I have to STRONGLY (but respectfully) disagree with this. My 47 years of classical experience has taught me this regarding playing in an orchestra:
If you think of it like driving a car, it may be more apparent. Yes, you need to look at the road (music) and the speedometer (conductor) but you also need to constantly check your side and rear view mirrors (your left AND right hands). My experience in performance is that I widen my attention to my entire field of vision to include the fingerboard, the Bow and bow hand and the position of the bow on the string along with it's direction and speed of travel. In addition to that Since I sit principle in several orchestras, I am watching my section peripherally to see if they are on the correct up or down bows and with me as I play. I can also tell by the way they play whether they are following the conductor, or playing the correct dynamic marking. That is my responsibility as section leader. While I am doing all of this, I am aware of the conductor and watching the music. This is a daunting task and not easily learned but it is a part of very classical players experience. Do you do it all at once all the time?? No. You do it the same way you you drive, constantly shifting your attention to each detail as you need to. It is possible and it is how we do it in orchestras. You simply have no idea unless you are trained in this music and have to do it. The is A LOT to this and it is seldom explained to younger players adequately.
Just a few fun facts on the differences between classical upright and electric:
There are a few things that Upright bass has that electric doesn't and they help. For example, the shoulders of the bass offer a solid tactile cue as to where you are when you are near them. Double bassists often refer to a bass as having either a D or an Eb neck. when you drop your hand on the shoulder and play 124 on the neck, you will either be playing a D or an Eb and that my friend is a very useful thing that helps you rely less on visuals. The feel of the should against the underarm as you climb the neck is also useful as a tactile cue and of course - your ears are the final arbiter as to whether you are on pitch.
I agree with your point that training the ear is critical, yet I also know that visuals can help and I agree with Lee Sklar who said (I am paraphrasing here) that ANYTHING that helps you play your part right is not cheating. Why would you ignore such a wonderful guide as your vision when it can be so helpful? I think that you are against using your eyes INSTEAD of your ears and I couldn't agree with you more if that is your actual point. I however stand by the fact that classical players are trained to use every advantage that they can in order to deliver a proper and in tune sound - including their precious vision.
They are both similar and different but the argument that I am making is that many of these issues are gemane to any instrument that relies on the player to establish the intonation with their fingers. Many of the basic principles of music are universal. I was using an orchestral example which can be applied to electric fretless bass.
@thmsjordan: you are correct that I am not totally against using the eyes as a guide. Sklar is correct that anything you can do to help play your part correctly is not cheating. I never ever claimed it to be taboo or anything like that.
But look at the bass section in the orchestral video I cited. Everything in the first five positions on the fingerboard is out of view to the player! 6th thru 10th positions are barely in the periphery. It’s only when you get to the 11th position and higher on the neck that your hand shows clearly in your peripheral vision.
My guitar instructors back in the day insisted we not look at the fretboard so we could focus on the music in front of us. And in school band, the instructors made the same criteria for all players during full band practice. So playing without looking at the fingerboard is a skill I practice now. I find it very valuable in the fretless context. As I’m teaching my band theory and I’m not as familiar with sight-reading as I once was, the last thing I need is to lose my spot in the page because I need to look at the fingerboard to figure out whether my intonation is correct (if my ears can’t tell me this, should I even be doing music? lol).
But look at the bass section in the orchestral video I cited. Everything in the first five positions on the fingerboard is out of view to the player! 6th thru 10th positions are barely in the periphery. It’s only when you get to the 11th position and higher on the neck that your hand shows clearly in your peripheral vision.
My guitar instructors back in the day insisted we not look at the fretboard so we could focus on the music in front of us. And in school band, the instructors made the same criteria for all players during full band practice. So playing without looking at the fingerboard is a skill I practice now. I find it very valuable in the fretless context. As I’m teaching my band theory and I’m not as familiar with sight-reading as I once was, the last thing I need is to lose my spot in the page because I need to look at the fingerboard to figure out whether my intonation is correct (if my ears can’t tell me this, should I even be doing music? lol).
Yes I think we are more in agreement than not.We have however had different teachers and different experiences. No worries there.
I think that your point was that you were against using eyes instead of ears to establish your pitch. I agree 200% on that point.
My point was that eyes and ears can both be useful and vision is a critical part so many parts of making music. You can either agree or disagree. No worries.
Happy Thanksgiving my friends. Some have complained about all the doublebass talk on an electric post so I will bow out here. (pun totally intended on that "bow"part!)
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Many years ago I took a master class at the National Guitar Workshop with Michael Manring. He's definitely one of the top fretless players out there today, in my opinion, and he's studied with some of the best (Berklee School of Music and private lessons with Jaco). Here is what he taught me about intonation on fretless:
- Perfectly okay to look at the fretboard. All of his fretless basses have lines and/or position markers, to give a visual landmark.
- He often uses a chromatic digital tuner, both as a practice tool and a performance aid. For example when he is playing unaccompanied fretless and there aren't any other instruments on stage to provide a reference pitch.
Indeed they are, but the underlying technical principles used to encourage, promote or enable accurate intonation still apply, the main one being good repeatable posture. The purpose of the mirror is to help establish, develop and maintain posture, not to watch individual fingertip positions. The exact same concept of consistent posture as a pre-requisite to accurate intonation applies to electric bass as it does the 'cello and double bass.
They both have very different postures that have nothing in common. The positioning indicators for intonation on a double bass are very different from that a bass guitar. The scale length is different. Posture alone isn't going to do it. And apart from frequencies, playing those two instruments is completely different. It's got nothing to do with electric bass intonation, it is a false equivalence.
Violin, cello, and double bass also have string lengths, playing postures and playing techniques that are very different from each other. Yet, the principle underlying correct intonation is the same: ear training, rigorous left hand technique, and muscle memory. So the argument quoted above is only superficial and not really convincing.
I strongly believe that although the string length, the playing posture, and the instrument shape of the fretless BG are very different from those of violin, cello, and DB, the principle for correct intonation remain the same.
The apparent similarity between the fretted and the fretless BG is deceiving: although the instrument shape, the playing posture, and the right hand technique are identical, they are really different instruments with respect to intonation, and left hand technique (more about this below).
With respect to intonation, the fretted BG is essentially similar to the piano: intonation is built in by construction, and there is no compelling need to press down the string at an exact position. This range of tolerance is at the core of the 1-2-3-4 left hand technique: with the hand being stretched, the 1st and the 4th finger usually press the string in different places between 2 frets (the 1st finger typically plays very close to the fret, whereas the pinky frequently plays less close to the fret), especially in low end of the fingerboard, where spaces between successive frets are wide.
With respect to intonation, the fretless BG is actually closer to the violin family instruments and to singing: in order to play in tune, it is vital to:
1. be able to pre-hear internally the note to be played
2. have a very solid and well-trained left hand muscle memory in order to finger the string at the right place to play the note that is pre-heard (and btw, visual cues provide an essential assistance here - no one is denying the usfulness ot this!)
3. clearly hear the note actually played (in the context of what is being played by other musicians around) in order to check (and if necessary correct on the fly) the pitch of the note.
The apparent (and deceiving) similarity between the fretted BG and the fretless BG is a source of considerable frustration for bass players who want to try out playing the fretless bass, and expect to be rapidly playing at a same level on fretless as on the fretted BG, without realizing that it is a different instrument that needs to be learned on its own.
More specifically, what requires a specific training is the left hand technique: the 1-2-3-4 technique becomes problematic on the fretless, because the stretched hand shape (in particular close to the nut) usually does not allow to play in tune in a fixed position, and because tiredness would cause the hand to close at the expense of intonation. The 1-2-4 (or Simandl) technique borrowed from double bass is (in my view) better adapted for correct intonation on fretless BG, because the hand is in a relaxed shape and the notes can be played in tune without stretching the hand, in particular close to the (higher up on the fingerboard, 1-2-3-4 becomes quite manageable). (To be complete, one should point out that some players play 1-2-3-4 everywhere on the neck on fretless, and some do this even on the DB; but this requires to use a pivot technique that is somehow more advanced and anyhow requires a specific training as well).
A rigorous 1-2-4 technique enabling correct intonation on fretless BG (and on DB) rests on several elements:
1. in-position playing: typical exercises involve playing within a fixed position in the context of some musical background (backing track, drone, etc.) that provides the reference for intonation. Ideally one should sing the line first, and then play it (to practice the pre-hearing). For in-position playing, any visual assistance should really be unnecessay; if some player needs to watch his/her left hand in order to play in tune in a fixed position, I would consider this as a serious flaw that needs to be worked on.
2. shift accuracy: this is a more tricky point, which most players transitioning for fretted BG would find challenging. On fretless orchestra instruments (violin, cello, DB), players devote a considerable amount of time practicing specific exercises aiming at training this difficult skills. Such exercises have to be progressive: 1/2-step shifts, then whole-step shifts, then minor-3rd shifts, etc... Noone should expect to nail accurately shifts of a 5th overnight. Here as well, the ear should play the primary role, and intonation references provided by the musical context of other musicians, as well as by including open strings and harmonics in one's playing are essential. In a normal playing (performance) situation, those long shifts would naturally benefit from the assistance provided by the vision, but it is really worth practicing those without looking at the left hand because all the attention is then shifted to the ear, which is the ultimate judge for intonation.
3. in addition to the technical aspects mentioned above, using the 1-2-4 technique requires a completely different fingering strategy, because the hand spans a whole step (instead of a minor 3rd for 1-2-3-4 technique). All the fingering patterns and "boxes" for scales and arpeggios BG players using 1-2-3-4 are familar with become useless (at least close to the nut). Instead, one can borrow fingering strategies from the DB, but, again, this is something that needs to be learned and practiced, and which does not come overnight. More importantly, this is conducive to some musically different type of playing, where shifting is much more prominent and has to take place in a very fluid manner.
These are my observations, as a player whose principal instrument is the double bass, and who has (almost) never tried to play a fretted BG. I would not be surprised, though, that a different musical path implies a different approach to the fretless BG. In particular, it is well possible that playing the fretless BG with 1-2-3-4 technique (for the reasons explained above) requires more visual assistance than when using 1-2-4 technique (for me, at least, it would).
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2.40 "Get one with lines."
3.10 "This isn't an upright, it is an electric bass."
3.45 "Visualization."
6.00 "Visualization."
6.24 "Check out the best fretless players."
I've linked a couple here, and they all spend at least 90% of their time, looking at the board...
101 Bass Tips: Stuff All the Pros Know and Use - Gary Willis - Google Books
Tip 85: "Look at the neck."
This is like shooting fish in a barrel...
Tip 85: "Look at the neck."
This is like shooting fish in a barrel...
Forget Jaco, Willis, Caron, Lagrene... We don't need experts anymore, everyone is an expert these days... What do they know?
Good points. I agree with almost everything you say. Only the 1-2-4 system on electric bass is mostly applicable and usefull in the lowest 5 or 6 frets. From fourth or third position 1234 is no problem even on fretless. Even in the lowest region you can still use 1234 on fretless. Many pro players do so. But I agree that 1-2-4 can be handy in those lowest positions and give your hand some rest. You don't need to master upright bass fingerings and positions though to master fretless bass. Although it will not harm you.
For the rest I think many here analyze is a bit too much and are trying to convince others what to do. I doubt if all pro players think this far.
All that matters for good intonation is good ear and good hand position and muscle memory. If you achieve this by looking at the fretboard it is fine, if don't want to look it's also fine. What works for one person might not work for everyone. The end result and the music that comes out is what matters.
Show me one. Show me one name fretless bassist with good intonation, who doesn't look at the board. Just one.