Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
Welcome to TalkBass! Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
One of the problems is beaming and dispersion. If you throttle back a full range design to 125Hz and up, 500Hz and up, or whatever xover point you select, that cab is going to have wonky dispersion meaning it may sound sort of okay in one spot, abysmal in another. But it simply isn't going to be better sounding than in full range. That's why PA systems are designed with bass bins and tops. Some bass players do go that route.
Folks who mix cabs are better served by using a two channel power amp both fed with the same signal that can be attenuated for the weaker cab.
Folks who mix cabs are better served by using a two channel power amp both fed with the same signal that can be attenuated for the weaker cab.
Easier said than done - I have a PH1000 at a rehearsal space, a pair of Acoustic B410s in a backline trailer, and I just picked up an old Dual Showman cab that I'm going to put under a Super Twin I'm rehabbing... There's probably a couple more I'm forgetting, and there's these, too:
I also *used* to gig the bruiser on the far left, but ended up selling it after 6 years of fairly hard use:
Semi-related to the OP, I really like the PH210 on top of the PH115 - and think they pair up better than the 410 and 115...
Last edited:
If someone wants to make a purse out of their sows ear this is the place to ask.
Biamp with the 15 on top might sound very good. It will disperse much better than the full range option.
I am with you on the bother but my biamped full range cabs do sound pristine so you can't really say if it might be worth it for the OP when he already has all the gear.
As has been mentioned, not worth it for you. The problem is that the 4x10" can handle the highs and the lows, as can the 1x15". If you ask (for instance) the 4x10" to just do the lows then you're wasting it's potential by not asking it to produce the highs and you're not gaining anything as it's still only got the same, finite, amount of low-frequency output. Meanwhile, the reverse is true of the high-frequency cab.
You're essentially carrying two cabs to do one cab's job.
You're essentially carrying two cabs to do one cab's job.
If you run bi-amped you'll be crippling one of your full range cabs because you either won't be using the woofers out of one at all, or you won't be using them effectively and efficiently - depending where you set the crossover. Bi-amping was very handy back in the 80's when we didn't really have full range cabs and we'd sometimes put a separate horn on top it. Then we could run 100-watts to the horn (more than enough) and 200 to 400-watts to the subs. The cabs you have are full range cabs and bi-amping them will end up with less volume and no improvement in sound. It might be a fun exercise, but don't expect to improve your sound by doing it with the cabs you have.
Depending on the loudness needed it could be a big improvement in sound. It's not like with both driven hard the 15 can add much loudness to the 410 anyway.
And yet, with bi-amping, the 115 would get the bulk of the power to produce the lows and the 410 may not get the power it needs because normally bi-amp systems send less power to drive the "high" cabinet and more power to the Low cab.
Yeah, he should try it and mess around with the crossover control to see if he can find something that sounds decent, but don't expect it to sound better or perform at the volume of running your cabs in dual-mono mode where all your speakers are operating at optimum levels.
I just noticed that amp also has a bi-amp balance control which adjusts the relative power sent to each while in bi-amp mode. Using that control in conjunction with playing around with the crossover control itself.
I used to run a GK115blx under an acoustic B410 cab. I ran my Eden WT500/800 amp in dual-mono mode. The GK115blx is a very boomy 115 cab and before I got this dual power-block amp, I used to have to really dial back the Bass EQ to help get rid of most of the boomy sound. Then I got the dual power-block amp and it has a balance knob that will adjust the balance of power that it sends out from each side of the amp. I found I could leave my Bass EQ at flat (my acoustic B410 was grateful) and just turn the balance a bit towards the 410 side of the amp to get rid of the mud from the 115. That balanced the sound nicely for that stack.
I now use a single 410 cab (DNA's DNS-410), which blows the old stack away and I run my amp bridged at 800-watts into it (power-handling of the cab is 1400 watts RMS). So I don't need any other cab.
Looking at the manual for the 4 Pro (http://www.ampeg.com/pdf/SVT4PRO.pdf), it looks like you've got two ways to bi-amp with it: full-range to one channel and lows to another, or highs to one channel, lows to the other. Between that and...
... you have a fair amount of flexibility (though not as much as if you could set the HPF and LPF for each channel independently).
Set the 15 on top, listen carefully, and have some fun. You might very well end up with a configuration you like better than running both cabs full-range, but pay attention to the 15 -- depending on how you tweak the knobs, you could send it more power than the 410 if you're not careful.
If you like the highs and mids from the 15, you might try running it full range and the 410 low-passed fairly high (you could start at the 1 KHz top of the crossover control and slowly dial it down to see how you like it -- the balance control should be set so that the 410 is getting more power than the 15). You can compare this to running both cabs full range and see how you like it.
You can also try crossing the cabs over "normally" (high/low) and see what combination of crossover point and balance between the cabs yields the most cohesive sound without unduly stressing one or the other.
Are both cabs 8 Ohms, or is the 410 4 Ohms and the 15 8 Ohms? The latter would be more conducive to running the cabs together -- particularly full-range -- but your ears will be your best safeguard in any case.
Good luck!
EDIT: From my quick look at the manual, it's not clear to me whether the balance control operates only when bi-amping or if it can be used when running both cabs full range. If the latter, that would be handy in addressing the distribution-of-power issues that often arise when running an 8 Ohm 15 with an 8 Ohm 410.
21. CROSSOVER FREQUENCY:
This sets the crossover point between the Bi-amp High and Bi-amp Low outputs when using the amplifier in bi-amp mode (see ‘Hook-up Diagrams’, pages 5–7).
22. CROSSOVER BALANCE:
This adjusts the relative level between the low and high frequency bi-amp signals when using the amplifier in the bi-amp mode.
This sets the crossover point between the Bi-amp High and Bi-amp Low outputs when using the amplifier in bi-amp mode (see ‘Hook-up Diagrams’, pages 5–7).
22. CROSSOVER BALANCE:
This adjusts the relative level between the low and high frequency bi-amp signals when using the amplifier in the bi-amp mode.
Set the 15 on top, listen carefully, and have some fun. You might very well end up with a configuration you like better than running both cabs full-range, but pay attention to the 15 -- depending on how you tweak the knobs, you could send it more power than the 410 if you're not careful.
If you like the highs and mids from the 15, you might try running it full range and the 410 low-passed fairly high (you could start at the 1 KHz top of the crossover control and slowly dial it down to see how you like it -- the balance control should be set so that the 410 is getting more power than the 15). You can compare this to running both cabs full range and see how you like it.
You can also try crossing the cabs over "normally" (high/low) and see what combination of crossover point and balance between the cabs yields the most cohesive sound without unduly stressing one or the other.
Are both cabs 8 Ohms, or is the 410 4 Ohms and the 15 8 Ohms? The latter would be more conducive to running the cabs together -- particularly full-range -- but your ears will be your best safeguard in any case.
Good luck!
EDIT: From my quick look at the manual, it's not clear to me whether the balance control operates only when bi-amping or if it can be used when running both cabs full range. If the latter, that would be handy in addressing the distribution-of-power issues that often arise when running an 8 Ohm 15 with an 8 Ohm 410.
Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
drool
Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
Dude............This is killing me.......drool
Sorry, bud - but I was asked, lol... I gig ALOT, and am also an unapologetic gear whore, sooo...
If you're doing crossover, you should ideally have a 118. Other options would include disconnecting your tweeters or getting a 210 to go with your 115 so that the 10s don't overpower. I actually have a GK 3/4 stack with a 115 and a 210 and no tweeters, and it seems to like the crossover from my cheesy little iNUKE just fine.
That crossover frequency is set at 1100hz, if memory serves.
That crossover frequency is set at 1100hz, if memory serves.
Full range is the way to go with those cabs.
Biamping never took off because 10" bass cabs and 15" bass cabs really do benefit from full range. Apologies to the MDP, but taking the lows out of 10s or the mids/highs out of 15s is robbing the speakers of the chance at delivering what they do best.
Biamp should be between true woofer/mid/tweeter type systems, not full range cabs.
Biamping never took off because 10" bass cabs and 15" bass cabs really do benefit from full range. Apologies to the MDP, but taking the lows out of 10s or the mids/highs out of 15s is robbing the speakers of the chance at delivering what they do best.
Biamp should be between true woofer/mid/tweeter type systems, not full range cabs.
Be careful, then, with how you set the balance and/or crossover controls, so that you don't overstress one cab. If you can employ the balance control when running full-range, that would be great.
Generally, I'd say you're right, but if the OP finds the highs and mids from the 410 "fighting" with those from the 15 or reinforcing one area more than he'd like, he may well find that running the 15 full-range and low-passing the 410 pretty high (so that it still contributes significantly where the meat of the sonic energy is) yields a preferable result. Or not. He might get a better result simply turning down the tweeter on one cab, if that's the case, but there's still the question of the power imbalance. With this setup, if the balance control only works when bi-amping (looks that way in the manual, but I'm not sure), then that's the only way to take advantage of it.
Short of different cabs or running a pre+power setup (or something else that would let you adjust the levels to each cab independently), with this setup, I'd try...
- running the cabs full range -- see how you like it and listen carefully to the 15
- running the 15 full range, on top, and the 410 low-passed at 1 KHz (as high as the crossover frequency control goes), adjusting the balance control so that neither cab seems unduly stressed (more power to the 410); you can try dialing down the frequency gradually, but if you go too low you'll be cutting out a big part of what the 410 can do.
If the balance control functions when operating the cabs full-range, that gives the amp another degree of flexibility and gives the OP another option to try. If not, he will still have to listen carefully when driving both cabs full-range.
Redux: If you've already got the stuff, experiment, see what you like, and listen carefully so that you don't blow a cab. That's all I've got.
since it is a dual block amp, he can set the levels for each cab accordingly, even in full range, I believe the SVT 4 pro has that option. The stereo SWR amps back then did, separate volume controls when not bridged. But I could be wrong about the SVT, been a while since I used one, and it was plugged into a fridge and probably bridged. Not since 2004/5
Maybe, but I only see the one Master volume control and manual doesn't make a direct mention of it that I see (though I haven't thoroughly perused it yet). The manual does show how to wire it up to run two cabs in stereo -- potential there depending one what else is in the chain -- but plugging straight in with a bass and one instrument cable, I don't know.
Perhaps someone with a 4Pro can chime in -- or perhaps the OP can try it and let us know!