Double Bass Carbon fibre bows

#101
garrett2 said:
You need to take some time with the Arcus, as Louis has suggested elsewhere, in order to get the fullest sound out of it.
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I'm still figuring mine out, I think. I brought it to an orchestra rehearsal last year and played it on stage for two other musicians (flute players sitting about 50 feet away). I also played my Reid Hudson. Both flute players immediately preferred the Arcus, without knowing which bow was which.

A few weeks ago, I did a similar experiment for my teacher, and he basically made a face when I played the Arcus and said "it sounds like it's hollow". He was a lot closer than the flute players, and we weren't on stage, so I wonder a bit if there's a difference in how the sound is perceived from a distance versus up close.

I really like the Arcus for orchestral passages that take a lot of rhythmic precision because it sounds very clear and it's easy to "wiggle back and forth". However, I've got a couple solos coming up next season and I'm 99% sure I'll do those on the Hudson.
 
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#102
Mark_T said:
A few weeks ago, I did a similar experiment for my teacher, and he basically made a face when I played the Arcus and said "it sounds like it's hollow". He was a lot closer than the flute players, and we weren't on stage, so I wonder a bit if there's a difference in how the sound is perceived from a distance versus up close.
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Did your bass teacher know which bow you were playing?
 
#103
I don't think anyone is making outrageous claims. It is what it is with Arcus. Like I said, it works for some people others not.

I just moved up to an S7 and sound and hand/wrist health wise it's everything I need and then some.

Where are you? I'm happy to send you my Vingo Arcus copy to try. (see classifieds)
It's roughly the same as an entry level S4.

If you are in LA you can try the S7.

I too had a very good exchange with Olivier about trying to get one of his Barre Phillips (I think) model bows. At the time it just seemed impossible to get one to the US.

Hope this helps
Louis
 
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#104
garrett2 said:
Did your bass teacher know which bow you were playing?
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It was not a blind test in that case, so it's not totally fair. But, frankly, I agree with him. I'd had the exact same thought (ie, same word popped into my head) when I first tried it. Also, to be fair, the Arcus (an S5) cost probably less than half of what the Hudson is worth.

I like the Arcus a lot, don't get me wrong. It's really lovely to play.
 
#105
Mark_T said:
It was not a blind test in that case, so it's not totally fair. But, frankly, I agree with him. I'd had the exact same thought (ie, same word popped into my head) when I first tried it. Also, to be fair, the Arcus (an S5) cost probably less than half of what the Hudson is worth.

I like the Arcus a lot, don't get me wrong. It's really lovely to play.
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It reminds me of audiophile responses to speaker cones when you can see them. You kind of project the visible properties of the material onto interpreting the sound. People's judgments and interpretations are drastically different when they don't know anything about what is generating the sound beyond the sound. I have no doubt the Reid Hudson is better, you would know. But you had more of a double blind test with the flautists!
 
#106
LouisF said:
I don't think anyone is making outrageous claims. It is what it is with Arcus. Like I said, it works for some people others not.

I just moved up to an S7 and sound and hand/wrist health wise it's everything I need and then some.

Where are you? I'm happy to send you my Vingo Arcus copy to try. (see classifieds)
It's roughly the same as an entry level S4.

If you are in LA you can try the S7.

I too had a very good exchange with Olivier about trying to get one of his Barre Phillips (I think) model bows. At the time it just seemed impossible to get one to the US.

Hope this helps
Louis
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That is very generous of you. I'm in Chicago. If a USA distributor doesn't seem excited about a week trial for an Arcus, I will take you up on that. I don't mind going through the hassle of a trial through a shop because I plan to purchase some sort of carbon fiber bow before the school year starts back up in the fall.

I am sure the S7 with gut strings does sound great!!!
 
#107
garrett2 said:
It reminds me of audiophile responses to speaker cones when you can see them. You kind of project the visible properties of the material onto interpreting the sound. People's judgments and interpretations are drastically different when they don't know anything about what is generating the sound beyond the sound. I have no doubt the Reid Hudson is better, you would know. But you had more of a double blind test with the flautists!
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I'll try and grab a recording with a decent mike in the next day or two; I'll do 3 or 4 different bows, one of which will be the Arcus. I'll keep track of which is which but I'll arrange that you can't see which is which.
 
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#108
I've had a few REALLY good wood bows over 50+ years of playing, and even the S6 is lacking sound-wise compared to that level of bow (S. Kolstein, Paulus, Halsey etc). The S7 (at $3K+) is the first level that has the nuance I expect, as well as volume and warmth, in a bow in the over $2500 range. The selling point for me (at 75) is the health factor for my hands and wrists.

I honestly don't know whether it's science or voodoo, but the vibrations from wood bows adversely affect my hand, to the point of fatigue and swelling. The same was true (but to a lesser extent) with the solid core cf bows (Glasser & Finale), but the tone was less satisfying.

I broke in the S7 Saturday at Disney hall with a two and a half hour dress rehearsal and a two hour concert. With a wood bow I would be wearing wrist braces etc, just to get through. Played the gig without any braces and without any pain etc that night or the next day.

Again, I don't know if it's science or voodooo, but it works for me.

crd: I got my bow through Linda West cellos in Santa Barbara. Anne West will gladly arrange for a trial if that helps. Otherwise I'm happy to send you the bow.
 
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#109
LouisF said:
I've had a few REALLY good wood bows over 50+ years of playing, and even the S6 is lacking sound-wise compared to that level of bow (S. Kolstein, Paulus, Halsey etc). The S7 (at $3K+) is the first level that has the nuance I expect, as well as volume and warmth, in a bow in the over $2500 range. The selling point for me (at 75) is the health factor for my hands and wrists.

I honestly don't know whether it's science or voodoo, but the vibrations from wood bows adversely affect my hand, to the point of fatigue and swelling. The same was true (but to a lesser extent) with the solid core cf bows (Glasser & Finale), but the tone was less satisfying.

I broke in the S7 Saturday at Disney hall with a two and a half hour dress rehearsal and a two hour concert. With a wood bow I would be wearing wrist braces etc, just to get through. Played the gig without any braces and without any pain etc that night or the next day.

Again, I don't know if it's science or voodooo, but it works for me.

crd: I got my bow through Linda West cellos in Santa Barbara. Anne West will gladly arrange for a trial if that helps. Otherwise I'm happy to send you the bow.
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That's amazing. I am so glad you found a solution that works. There is very little I wouldn't do to keep playing. I will reach out to the shop in Santa Barbara mid July.
 
#110
Mark_T said:
It was not a blind test in that case, so it's not totally fair. But, frankly, I agree with him. I'd had the exact same thought (ie, same word popped into my head) when I first tried it. Also, to be fair, the Arcus (an S5) cost probably less than half of what the Hudson is worth.

I like the Arcus a lot, don't get me wrong. It's really lovely to play.
Click to expand...

You can't compare an S5 to a Reid Hudson. Quite different categories.
 
#111
@LouisF Congratulations! It is hard to write about how a bow plays. For me, as someone north of middle age, I have adopted the slogan "Easy is good." My Arcus S8 (top of their line) is a terrific bow that with its lightness, requires an adjustment, but always in the direction of less force, compared to my wooden (and other CF bows). Would I sound better with a $10k wooden bow? I might, but I wouldn't trade this lightness for anything with this aging body that would like to play pain-free for a couple more decades. I get compliments on my sound, and if the complimenter is not a bassist, the kind of bow I play never comes into question.

Having said all that, I understand not wanting to adjust after a lifetime of playing. It can feel confronting. However, when my Arcus is in for a rehair, I adjust back OK to my more "typical" bows for a couple of weeks. I just get tired quicker!
 
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#112
Brilee said:
You can't compare an S5 to a Reid Hudson. Quite different categories.
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Arcus's claim about the S5 is that "it sounds like traditional bows that cost twice or three times its price" so the comparison is fair.

Brilee said:
@LouisF My Arcus S8 (top of their line) is a terrific bow that with its lightness, requires an adjustment, but always in the direction of less force, compared to my wooden (and other CF bows).
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For $2k more you can now get an S9
 
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#115
bassically_eli said:
I was thinking of a comparison between the different levels of Arcus and wondering what the listener might perceive. I will have to take others' words for how they play, but the engineer in me can't help but wonder just what the difference is physically between the bows and how that affects the sound.
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Their marketing suggests to me that, apart from things like the metal fittings, which can be steel, nickel, silver, or gold, the actual bows all came off the same line and were graded according to performance, and sold accordingly.

I briefly had both an S4 and S5 french bow on trial, but this was years ago. My recollection was there was an extremely subtle sonic difference between them, with the S5 sounding nicer to my ear. Interestingly, there was also some minor differences in the shape of the frog, and the S4 was more comfortable to hold. I think the detail that made a difference to me was the edge up by where the frog met the stick on the playing side where my thumb rests. That was more rounded on the S4 and a sharp corner on the S5. I can't tell you if that's down to the individual workings of each frog or if it has something to do with their actual supply of frog blanks at each grade.
 
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#117
PBandJazzBass said:
I went ahead and bought the Coda. I used it for a gig Friday night and was amazed at how easy it was to play.

Not just the response/sound of the bow, but the weight, feel and balance.

Kind of makes me excited to incorporate more arco into my jazz playing!
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Interesting to me. I have an Erich Steiner German bow and have been working with it a lot more, but I sound like I'm where you generally are. I'm a jazz player, arco is not a big part of what I do outside of the practice room. Still, I'd like to be better and potentially use it more.

Tell me about your experience switching. And I found that bow on SW Strings for about $750 which is probably reasonable. They have a pernumico bow for closer to $600. Is the general conclusion of this thread that at the same relative price point, we think Carbon is better now? and also...you have to audition everything to know.
 
#118
TroyK said:
Interesting to me. I have an Erich Steiner German bow and have been working with it a lot more, but I sound like I'm where you generally are. I'm a jazz player, arco is not a big part of what I do outside of the practice room. Still, I'd like to be better and potentially use it more.

Tell me about your experience switching. And I found that bow on SW Strings for about $750 which is probably reasonable. They have a pernumico bow for closer to $600. Is the general conclusion of this thread that at the same relative price point, we think Carbon is better now? and also...you have to audition everything to know.
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I think that under ≈US$1,000 the average carbon fiber bow will be better balanced and respond better than the average wood bow. I think even at that price the average wood bow will still sound better, but that doesn’t mean much if it’s poorly-balanced or doesn’t respond quite right. Plus, pernambuco/brazilwood (which from my understand come from the same tree) is incredibly endangered, so if I was buying a brand new bow at that price point I would rather not purchase a pernambuco bow out of a sense of not wanting to contribute to the over-harvesting of pernambuco, but that’s definitely more of an ethical stance on my part. I do know of fairly high-end bowmakers who are experimenting with ipe, purpleheart, and bloodwood for their bows (which all have a similar-ish hardness and elasticity to pernambuco and are nowhere near as endangered), but I haven’t really seen that trickle down into the lower end of the bow market.
 
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#119
TroyK said:
Interesting to me. I have an Erich Steiner German bow and have been working with it a lot more, but I sound like I'm where you generally are. I'm a jazz player, arco is not a big part of what I do outside of the practice room. Still, I'd like to be better and potentially use it more.

Tell me about your experience switching. And I found that bow on SW Strings for about $750 which is probably reasonable. They have a pernumico bow for closer to $600. Is the general conclusion of this thread that at the same relative price point, we think Carbon is better now? and also...you have to audition everything to know.
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The Erich Steiner I had was a fine bow, but there was something about the feel, weight and/or balance that never quite jelled with me. Even after some rehairs and experimentation with rosin, I always felt like it fought me a little. I think when I first got it I was just excited to have a wood bow and was like “I’m a real bass player now!”

Your Erich Steiner may very well feel and sound better than mine. The Coda just feels more natural to me. I pick it up and it’s effortless to play. More importantly, I think I sound better with it.

Since graduating from music school in 2015, I’ve probably averaged 1 classical/orchestral gig a year. If anyone looks down on me for using a CF bow instead of pernambuco, they’re more than welcome to buy me a new one or get lost.
 
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