Double Bass Christian McBride

#41
I'm not calling you out for what it's worth. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

I don't think anyone is above critique. There are performances/recordings of every player that I prefer and those that I'm not that crazy about. My understanding with Christian (though I certainly don't intend to speak for him) is his whole drive is about feel, groove, and making your foot tap. He came up listening to motown and funk. If that part of his playing doesn't move you then you are missing out on a huge part of his musical personality.

In his own words.
 
#43
fingers said:
I'm not calling you out for what it's worth. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.

I don't think anyone is above critique. There are performances/recordings of every player that I prefer and those that I'm not that crazy about. My understanding with Christian (though I certainly don't intend to speak for him) is his whole drive is about feel, groove, and making your foot tap. He came up listening to motown and funk. If that part of his playing doesn't move you then you are missing out on a huge part of his musical personality.

In his own words.
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- OK I'll take being the bummer even further here and propose that while nearly all of us love that or are at least pre-programed to love it, in many ways it is the easy way out.
There is no question about the power of swing and funk rhythms, so powerful in fact that we can often tune out everything else.
 
#44
damonsmith said:
- OK I'll take being the bummer even further here and propose that while nearly all of us love that or are at least pre-programed to love it, in many ways it is the easy way out.
There is no question about the power of swing and funk rhythms, so powerful in fact that we can often tune out everything else.
Click to expand...

No, you're not a bummer. You've opened my eyes to the tyrannical oppression of the man. I'm going to go out and burn all of my CD's with a swinging or funky groove.
 
#45
damonsmith said:
- OK I'll take being the bummer even further here and propose that while nearly all of us love that or are at least pre-programed to love it, in many ways it is the easy way out.
There is no question about the power of swing and funk rhythms, so powerful in fact that we can often tune out everything else.
Click to expand...

Geez. This reads as really condescending. I guess I have been brainwashed. I'm going to go, like a zombie, to my gig tonight and try my best to groove in the way I was 'pre-programmed' to and 'tune everything else out'.
 
#48
fingers said:
Geez. This reads as really condescending. I guess I have been brainwashed. I'm going to go, like a zombie, to my gig tonight and try my best to groove in the way I was 'pre-programmed' to and 'tune everything else out'.
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I am just trying to get some critical discussion going, I have worked hard on being able to do that stuff like everyone else and own plenty swinging and funky recordings.

I do think it can be a danger in some ways, an extreme example being bad commercial hip-hop where you can see the masses will choke down ANYTHING with a beat.
It can also be something that can let soloists stop paying attention and fall into licks much easier.
You have the jazz concept of creating a nice ride for the rest of the band, maybe like Sam Jones (Who I love), but I much prefer the cattle prod/pull the rug out approach of Mingus and Dannie Richmond.

Talkbass is not Jazz Times or Down Beat, it is bass players talking shop, so being critical and re-thinking things can hopefully make our own playing more considered if not better.
 
#49
dkziemann said:
Sorry man, but you really, really need to listen again if you think [Ray Brown's] intonation is perfect...
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I don't want to contradict you, Danny, because you just sent me such a nice set of strings and they got here the day after Christmas! :) (And I love 'em--Velvet Compas 180 SUITS, for anyone who's listening.) But if I had to pick one jazz bassist with great intonation, I think it would be Ray. Now, Ron Carter, Gary Peacock, Cecil McBee, Scott LaFaro, Eddie Gomez, these are all phenomenal musicians and bassists who every once in awhile put a note across that's pretty obviously not where one would expect it to be from a pitch standpoint. But Ray?

I admit, I don't have a comprehensive knowledge of his works, but you must have some examples of his poor intonation in mind you can share with us. If you can give us some, I promise to respond in kind with some A/B comparisons to back up my claim that Christian's vocab owes a ton to Ray's work. (I'm an academic, unfortunately, and we get hung up on using real evidence to support arguments [in spite of what Fox News would have people believe].)
 
#50
damonsmith said:
I am just trying to get some critical discussion going, I have worked hard on being able to do that stuff like everyone else and own plenty swinging and funky recordings.

I do think it can be a danger in some ways, an extreme example being bad commercial hip-hop where you can see the masses will choke down ANYTHING with a beat.
It can also be something that can let soloists stop paying attention and fall into licks much easier.
You have the jazz concept of creating a nice ride for the rest of the band, maybe like Sam Jones (Who I love), but I much prefer the cattle prod/pull the rug out approach of Mingus and Dannie Richmond.

Talkbass is not Jazz Times or Down Beat, it is bass players talking shop, so being critical and re-thinking things can hopefully make our own playing more considered if not better.
Click to expand...

Right on, Damon. I think if I had to express the same thing you were maybe saying in the earlier post, it would be that: a fat groove is a very cool thing, but it alone cannot carry a piece of music in the tradition we're talking about (this excludes, you know, traditional African music or Brazilian carnival music and whatnot). The entire genre of smooth jazz could be a case in point: if one just listened to the rhythm sections, one would hear a fairly deep groove. Then you add the fluff on top and mix in a complete lack of hipness, and you've destroyed whatever promise there was in the groove. Or take James Brown's stuff minus James Brown--deep grooves, but without the preacher standing on top giving the message the whole thing is empty. I heard some hard-bop in the shopping mall yesterday (I know, weird), and I didn't recognize it, but it sounded just like a Horace Silver band/groove without the hip horn harmonies and burning blowing of Joe Henderson or Woody Shaw or JJ over the top; as such, it was not cool.

I'm not speaking for Damon, because he might say "you're much more interested in 'deep grooves,' whatever that means, than I am," but I think the point stands that we can judge groove-based music by more criteria than simply whether or not the groove itself is good.
 
#52
Jeremy Allen said:
Right on, Damon. I think if I had to express the same thing you were maybe saying in the earlier post, it would be that: a fat groove is a very cool thing, but it alone cannot carry a piece of music in the tradition we're talking about (this excludes, you know, traditional African music or Brazilian carnival music and whatnot). The entire genre of smooth jazz could be a case in point: if one just listened to the rhythm sections, one would hear a fairly deep groove. Then you add the fluff on top and mix in a complete lack of hipness, and you've destroyed whatever promise there was in the groove. Or take James Brown's stuff minus James Brown--deep grooves, but without the preacher standing on top giving the message the whole thing is empty. I heard some hard-bop in the shopping mall yesterday (I know, weird), and I didn't recognize it, but it sounded just like a Horace Silver band/groove without the hip horn harmonies and burning blowing of Joe Henderson or Woody Shaw or JJ over the top; as such, it was not cool.

I'm not speaking for Damon, because he might say "you're much more interested in 'deep grooves,' whatever that means, than I am," but I think the point stands that we can judge groove-based music by more criteria than simply whether or not the groove itself is good.
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I agree with all of this but aren't we talking about what makes Christian such a great part of a whole? He is a bass player in groove based music after all.

Damon's issue seems to be with his technique. OK. Fine. His left hand looks sloppy. Kids, don't try that at home. In the mean time he will be playing the sh** out of the bass and the who's who of jazz will be calling him.
 
#53
fingers said:
I agree with all of this but aren't we talking about what makes Christian such a great part of a whole? He is a bass player in groove based music after all.

Damon's issue seems to be with his technique. OK. Fine. His left hand looks sloppy. Kids, don't try that at home. In the mean time he will be playing the sh** out of the bass and the who's who of jazz will be calling him.
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I'm responding to the exchange that started with you saying--
fingers said:
My understanding with Christian (though I certainly don't intend to speak for him) is his whole drive is about feel, groove, and making your foot tap. He came up listening to motown and funk. If that part of his playing doesn't move you then you are missing out on a huge part of his musical personality.
Click to expand...
(An excellent point! And thanks for the very informative link.)

to which Damon responded--
damonsmith said:
There is no question about the power of swing and funk rhythms, so powerful in fact that we can often tune out everything else.
Click to expand...

to which he was given a couple of flippant replies; so I just wanted to make the point Damon might have been stating, which is that a strong groove cannot make up the entirety of a strong musical performance, even in jazz and funk.

I agree with you that this complaint doesn't apply to the vast majority of Christian McBride's straight-ahead playing as a sideman--everything I've heard that he's been on in this capacity is just so excellent--but I think it does relate to his solo albums. (See disc three of Live At Tonic...).

But, once again, we are picking nits about an amazing bassist. Those of us who love him wholeheartedly are welcome to do so; those of us who turn a critical eye to his playing are also welcome to do so, and we may learn a thing or two in the process.
 
#54
Well stated Jeremy. I agree whole-heartedly. Though there are a few smokin numbers on disc one of Live at Tonic most of the next two discs rarely hit my cd player.

The issue I have is Damon's points are getting awfully close to the line (and maybe have crossed it) between critique and criticism. To have issue with his left hand is one thing, to me this is critique worth talking about. Even to talk about some of his musical choices... fine. To talk about how he should practice more and not 'rest on his laurels' and then make us aware of the intellectual dangers of groove is quite another. This is what brought the flippant responses.
 
#55
Jeremy Allen said:
But, once again, we are picking nits about an amazing bassist. Those of us who love him wholeheartedly are welcome to do so; those of us who turn a critical eye to his playing are also welcome to do so, and we may learn a thing or two in the process.
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Yessir*.

I always get amused when these kinds of threads start to get heated. No bassist, no matter how incredible, walks on water or is immune to the fact of human imperfection. I hear Ray playing *slightly* out of tune and slip-sliding into notes sometimes when soloing (Jeremy: check out Ray's solo on "Days of Wine and Roses" from "Live from NY to Tokyo" for examples), but every time I hear that happening, I also find myself being able to hear full well what he was going for even if he didn't nail it like a machine; in my own playing, I forgive this kind of miscue in the heat of the moment even as I try to improve upon it in the shed. But I've never heard Ray sound like he he was completely lost or in the wrong key, even for a moment. Sadly, I cannot say the same about a few of my own recordings. :rolleyes::D

As far as McBride's playing, it comes from a very strong groove-oriented place. I don't look for him to sound like Drew Gress any time soon, just as I don't look for Drew to sound like Christian. But I learn a lot when I listen to either of them play. Whoever said that one player was supposed to be all things to all people? To use a cheesy sports analogy: McBride reminds me of Shaquille O'Neal, Ray reminds me of Kareem, and Drew reminds me of Tim Duncan. All three players are very different, but all had great teams built around them that won because of their anchors in the middle. There are many ways to anchor the middle. (damn, that analogy was kinda lame. Where's my coffee?)









* Translation for Maine residents: "Ayuh"
 
#56
fingers said:
To talk about how he should practice more and not 'rest on his laurels'
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-I'll stand by that one. If I was regularly getting gigs of the caliber of Sonny Rollins and Roy Hanyes I would practice more, than either he or I do now, I'd get my left hand together, etc.
I do strongly feel there are different standards for those who make a very good living playing the bass at a high level than for those how have to work day jobs and teach.

Also, it isn't that tough to get your left hand together you certainly did it judging by your clips, and I don't buy the fact that he grooves and swings as an excuse. :hyper:

I don't think we should be afraid to say these things if they are true - again it is bass players talking shop - not Down Beat.

Still, this rules:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VJbp6VqtXzQ
So does this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sspQd8zgQAQ&feature=related
And this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UHu7ow9Kepw&feature=related
 
#57
Hmm..well, for me, I wanted to chime in on this thread after being a longtime lurker here on TB because Christian always seems to get nothing but praise for his playing, as was happening earlier in this thread. For me he's not perfect, and I just wanted to throw that out there. However, like I said, generally I really like his playing.
However, this direction of "how much he practices" and if he should "get it together" is ludicrous to me. The guy has more technique than 99% of other jazz players and gets ALL the gigs. I've yet to hear anyone with a name bag on him for anything. I'd say he's got it together pretty well...
I still think he lacks sublety, but that's just my jealous nit picking happening.
 
#58
I think he actually has subtlety when he is really on, especially in those youtube clips I posted, he holds his own with a ton of character and technique next to two of the greatest modern bassists, that says a lot. No one will dispute his status as a great bassist, it is the untouchable demigod thing that myself and obviously some others are not buying.

There are ton of very inspiring things about his playing and his career in general, I just don't think those are the only things that should be brought up. I also honestly believe there are also a ton of guys who play that well, part of the whole thing is just a lottery and he won it.

FWIW, I am just as critical of my own personal bass idol, Peter Kowald, I love his playing more than anything (except maybe Cy Twombly's painting) but I have also been careful to not take on some of the bad technical habits he had.

Again: these discussions should be about what we are getting from him as an influence, even for me he is hugely influential, we are not going to make or break him, he is huge and unstoppable careerwise!
 
#59
http://youtube.com/watch?v=79tOrZhb4HI

his solo on this is unbelievable. tons of chops and he's got the ideas to boot.
while i prefer a more melodic approach rather than the rhythmic stuff he comes from, it's still mindblowing to watch and listen to.

this is probably all i'll contribute to this thread. i'm done criticizing players that can play.
Kenny Barron has it all figured out. From what i hear from my mentor who studied with him, he doesn't even offer opinion on players anymore. they're all "good" to him and he doesn't say anything else.

Keep it real guys. If you don't like his bag of tricks, fine. I'm not a huge fan of it either, but I'd sure like to be able to pick some of it just in case I ever feel like busting it out. that's why the link above is bookmarked so when i get done with my How High the Moon (stratforduponavon) transcription, i can tackle this one.
 
#60
Jeremy Allen said:
I don't want to contradict you, Danny, because you just sent me such a nice set of strings and they got here the day after Christmas! :) (And I love 'em--Velvet Compas 180 SUITS, for anyone who's listening.) But if I had to pick one jazz bassist with great intonation, I think it would be Ray. Now, Ron Carter, Gary Peacock, Cecil McBee, Scott LaFaro, Eddie Gomez, these are all phenomenal musicians and bassists who every once in awhile put a note across that's pretty obviously not where one would expect it to be from a pitch standpoint. But Ray?
Click to expand...

A couple examples (and obviously theres a million CD's to listen to, but) West Side Story with oscar peterson- the tune where he plays with the bow (tonight, maybe?). Theres a specific tune on Superbass that I can't think of that I will get back to you, and same on Some Of My Friends are the guitar players.

Now don't get me wrong anybody, I by no means think his intonation is absolutely disgusting at all. It's a bass, no one plays the damn thing in tune no matter who you are. But everyone has his flaws, and I think this is one of his. My one guess is that he didn't play much classical bass, and I don't care what anyone says, learning classical bass is the foundation to jazz. If you see guys like Rodney Whitaker, Christian, John Clayton (especially), they're very very talented classical players too. Just a thought-


PS Jeremy, I'm glad you like the strings! How do they sound?
 
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