Class D amps weaker than A/B?

I love the trickle down on this technology too. Many of the small festivals and small/medium sized venues can now have the power and the arrays they need. Better sound has become way more democratic in the music world.

It's also true for individual bands. Portable (or transportable?) PA systems are lighter, clearer, and less expensive than before. They are also much louder too (which isn't always a good thing in small bars).
 
This is unusual. Usually these days people are over extending in the deep lows. That's the 5hit that gives me a headache and ruins a show for me. I don't love me a kick drum that's hitting down to 20hz and blasting out all the rest of the mix.
I doubt you're going to hear 20hz from the kick. I do want to feel the kick on my chest though. I know this goes against talkbass wisdom as I see lots of people on here complaining about abundant low end, which I get that people want to hear clearly on stage, but always thought it was ironic that a bunch of bass players would be so uniformly averse to low frequencies.

the stuff that drives me nuts is to much of anything about 1.5khz and higher.

Personally there is never enough low end for me. I know that is not the case for most people, so when I've mixed I keep that in mind.

I think it is a generational thing too. You like the amount of low end you grew up with.
 
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I've done the same acts over the years with evolving systems, and there's no question in my mind that the later systems sounded WAY better... and they were lighter, less expensive (for similar performance, corrected for inflation), had better coverage, better bandwidth, better dynamic range, lower noise floor etc.

Anybody pineing for the good 'ol days of wireless mics? How about the original (read as uber-vintage) 49MHz classics. Next thing we'll see is these becoming cherished collector's items. ;)
I agree with everything you're saying. I guess I just feel like shows are mixed with less lows that maybe 10-15 year ago.
 
I'm not blaming it on the class, but honestly even "big" shows nowadays sound weaker to me than they did back in the day. More sterile for sure.

I think class D amps sound more sterile, in most cases than a/b because amp designers are hellbent on giving people "clarity" in their designs which translates to sterility for me. Having said that, I like my Mesa d800+ plus just fine, and my TH 500 was pretty good too.
Have to admit that I do more gigging than going to see big acts. The last big act I heard was Chicago. Outdoor gig. 100% IEM, no backline. MASSIVE sound. Crystal clear. They had huge arrays/subs etc. There was absolutely nothing weak at all about their sound. If anything, it was far more massive and MUCH clearer than the last time I heard them at Pine Knob in Detroit back in the day. Almost on the threshold of being too loud. I was really glad it was outside.
 
I doubt you're going to hear 20hz from the kick. I do want to feel the kick on my chest though. I know this goes against talkbass wisdom as I see lots of people on here complaining about abundant low end, which I get that people want to hear clearly on stage, but always thought it was ironic that a bunch of bass players would be so uniformly averse to low frequencies.

You certainly feel the low end extension... and with 20 x (pro) 218 cabinets, there would be no problem getting reasonable levels into the mid 20's, but that tends to muddy things up which is why we use high pass filters as needed.

I think bass players (and certainly many sound guys) don't particularly care for kick and snare dominating the mix and getting in the way of everything else (for most genres). I certainly don't, and that alone got me a lot of high paying gigs.

I agree with everything you're saying. I guess I just feel like shows are mixed with less lows that maybe 10-15 year ago.

I think that for many national acts, quality versus quantity of low end may be a factor. We have better tools to control directionality below 100Hz that there's less bouncing off of walls and getting in the way. I would say that we have more low end today, but a better quality.
 
In my experience with both AB & D versions of the Markbass LMII/III, I found the Class D LMIII version did not quite feel as taught/firm under my own fingers vs the older AB LMII/IIIs. My guess is its likely something to do with how the different power sections 'control' the speakers. I especially noticed that the class D LMIII ran out of steam rather quickly when turning up the volume powering an 8ohm cab. However, at 4ohms I found the LMIII to have plenty of power, though it still had a slightly "looser" feel to the sound vs the class AB models. In theory, the preamps of both AB/D LMII/IIIs are the same.

That said, I think the Class D LMIII may actually go a bit "louder" (but perhaps with less definition) than the AB LMII/III at 4 ohms. It seems that is where the Class D LMIII is at its strongest, with the most headroom. Just my observations...I still prefer the older AB LMII/III, as the sound comes across as a bit thicker/denser, less wide/clinical, to my ears. Also note, my observations are very specific to the LMII/III series, and the implementation of Class D in this particular model. Markbass also designs their own power modules unique to the industry standard ICE modules. Of course, any one amp, of any amplifier class, should be evaluated based on its own design merits & user experience. For example, the 800 watt module used in the current LMT800 seems to have quite a bit more clean headroom than the current LMIII at 8ohms.

Ive played many different lead sled and micro amps, and feel design/implementation can make a world of difference. Heavier does not always equal louder, smoother, or more defined bass either. Ive played a few "lead sleds" that didn't quite deliver upon expectation. However, the best of the AB amps Ive played certainly had plenty of headroom, presence, and definition that is very compelling. Overall, modern Class D modules- and more importantly, how they are implemented- continue to improve to the benefit of many bass players. But, I think its important to choose amps based on one's own ears and experience, rather than just looking at the specs.

Keep in mind that when we talk about amplifier classes, you need to seperate the preamp from the power amp to make comparisons. When comparing one head to another that includes a preamp, some of the differences you hear might be happening in the preamp. So even two heads built by the same company at the same time but with different power amp technology may have different characteristics that color the the two preamp differently.

Do the Bassman 500 and the Rumble 500 heads use the same Class D power module?
Do they have the same preamp architecture?
Do they sound the same?
If you took the effects out of the Rumble and feed it to the effects in on the Bassman and took the effects out of the Bassmen and fed it to the Rumble, could you tell which was which? And is any difference due to the preamps, the power amps or how the pre and power sections work together?
 
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This analogy is excellent! Although being lower in weight and having lumen equivalence, LEDs often differ substantially from incandescent lights in that their emitted light is not uniform, but restricted to several discrete frequencies. This means that they don't have the full range of "harmonics" that an incandescent light would have and are not always functionally equivalent (it can be a serious photographic problem for example with the wrong type of LEDs...).
We have color temperature adjustable LED lighting instruments where I work. You can use them in the mix with incandescent studio lighting or for fill lights outside. And you can dim LEDs and maintain color temp unlike what happens with "Edison Fire" lamps.
Cameras have a much better range of white balance, so if you had to light something with one of those tactical LED flashlights, the camera would handle it.
 
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There may be other factors involved in the way I remember things...lol

But, it could be just a production choice. I guess people want to travel lite. Maybe people want to emphasis other things. Went to a couple stadium shows about 18 months ago and was really disappointed by the lack of low end in some cases. Couldn't pickout more then 20 dual 18' boxes. I remember going to shows when I was younger and feeling like someone was kicking my guts in. At a rock show that is what I want, which I suppose goes against current trends. Seems like people are emphasizing high end clarity these days. Just my experience. Thinking more mid to early 2000's.
Don't attribute to the equipment, that which might be blamed on the guy running the equipment.
 
We have color temperature adjustable LED lighting instruments where I work. You can use them in the mix with incandescent studio lighting or for fill lights outside. And you can dim LEDs and maintain color temp unlike what happens with "Edison Fire" lamps.
Cameras have a much better range of white balance, so if you had to light something with one of those tactical LED flashlights, the camera would handle it.
Yup, I keep coming back to the overall design rather than simply the class of amp. LED lighting that contains multi-phosphors and multiple color elements can be mixed/blended to achieve a wide range of color temperatures. PWM switching frequencies are so high that there's no video strobing. efficiency and flatness of field is (or can be) better that incandescent, IF the design considers these factors important.
 
Keep in mind that when we talk about amplifier classes, you need to seperate the preamp from the power amp to make comparisons. When comparing one head to another that includes a preamp, some of the differences you hear might be happening in the preamp. So even two heads built by the same company at the same time but with different power amp technology may have different characteristics that color the the two preamp differently.
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In the case of the Markbass LMII/III, I just seem to like the way the preamp interacts with the AB power section. To my ears, while perhaps not quite as loud into 4ohms (still plenty stout for me), it seemed to produce a more focused, defined, and richer sound altogether. In my experience, the Class D LMIII power section provided a similar tone profile, but seemed to have an overall wider, looser feel under my fingers. I could see some players preferring one to the other, but I was just a bit accustomed to the original LMII/III Class AB tone. However, this observation only speaks for my experience with the Markbass designed Class D module in the current LMII amplifiers, and certainly does not paint all Class D (or AB) designs with a broad brush.
 
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I think it is a generational thing too. You like the amount of low end you grew up with.
Not always. I grew up in the 60's where most bass amps and cabs (certainly in the UK) were almost the same as those used for guitars. Bass players were usually struggling for volume and the lows were almost nonexistent.

Now I have a rig that is not lacking in lows or volume and love it, there is no way I would want to go back to what I was using even 10 years ago.
 
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You like the amount of low end you grew up with.
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In the end I'm a bit amazed by the fact that some folks here seem to confirm what my friend said. There could be something different with class D amps actually....

Or there are plenty of folks that have very limited experiences, and believe "good 'ol day" mythology?