Double Bass Dominant 7ths?

[turf3]

I'm not opposed to playing scales and arpeggios (this is a very large fraction of my practice on all instruments). Nor am I opposed to people who are engaged in a formal course of study having exams. What set my teeth on edge was this statement:

"It seems that when you reach a certain level at Double Bass and want to get exams, you need to know and be able to play these Dominant 7ths..."

There are a lot of reasons why someone would need to understand what the dominant seventh chord is and does, and to play through those patterns in every key, but "to get exams" seems like a side point to learning how to play music. If you're going to be a full service musician, things like THE MOST FUNDAMENTAL HARMONIC RELATIONSHIP IN WESTERN MUSIC FROM 1300 TO NOW aren't things you cram for an exam and then set aside.

 

[SteveCS]

...
aren't things you cram for an exam and then set aside.

100%, and 100% mea culpa if I mis-interpreted the comment

 

[Paps]

There are a lot of reasons why someone would need to understand what the dominant seventh chord is and does, and to play through those patterns in every key,

Yes, which is exactly why I posted and got many very helpful responses from those who understood.
Is that not what exams are for, to encourage people to learn the what's and whys in preparation for whatever? What happens then is you take or leave what you need for what is relevant.

 

[the_Ryan]

Wow, thanks for all the help and detailed responses. It's very impressive to see such knowledge!
I did music theory up to probably an intermediate level, but my theory level was behind my playing.
I got the impression that to get to grips with more advanced theory, an ability to play the piano would be a great help. I'm also very impressed at the detail of music jazz players etc bring into their music. This is an area I have no experience in. I will print this thread and keep it as I feel I have got a sound lecture on this subject!

I can’t play piano for the life of me, but as long as you know where the notes are building and resolving different progressions isn’t too hard (if you stick to the bass note in the left hand and 3 notes in the right hand).

Understanding chord function can definitely be useful for phrasing. But I think most classical musicians develop phrasing using an intuitive approach more so than actually performing harmonic analysis. It's likely that their intuition was informed by studying theory, but my perception is most classical musicians forget the intellectual aspects of theory. I have actually discussed this with several professionals classical players and the vast majority could not spell a dominant 7, or any other 7th chords for that matter.

In contrast, most professional jazz musicians can spell wide variety of 7th chords and will strive for proficiency in all keys.

I respectfully disagree, I think knowing the intricacies of music theory is incredibly valuable as a classical musician. It certainly helps with phrasing, but it also helps with understanding why conductors or soloists take time in certain places and why certain events in pieces are so surprising. As a bassist, particularly with baroque and classical music, our job is often is to provide harmonic foundation and knowing how the chords are moving allows us to support the harmonic motion with our dynamics (or “dynamics within the dynamics” to borrow a Hal Robinson-ism), and by extension supporting the ensemble to phrase in certain ways. I do not doubt that there are many successful classical musicians who have mostly forgotten about theory, but I absolutely do not endorse that. Knowing how the music works (and not just playing what’s on the page at the right time) will only enhance your performance of it.

 

[the_Ryan]

Yes, which is exactly why I posted and got many very helpful responses from those who understood.
Is that not what exams are for, to encourage people to learn the what's and whys in preparation for whatever? What happens then is you take or leave what you need for what is relevant.

In theory exams are supposed to test how well you know something, but sometimes people will learn something like a list of facts for an exam but not understand the “why” and then discard the knowledge immediately after the exam (I was certainly guilty of this when I didn’t care about a subject).

 

[Paps]

In theory exams are supposed to test how well you know something, but sometimes people will learn something like a list of facts for an exam but not understand the “why” and then discard the knowledge immediately after the exam (I was certainly guilty of this when I didn’t care about a subject).

At least learning for an exam is a start.
When you're young, you may have a lot on your plate, so there is a time factor which can impede real understanding. So, I do take responsibility, but it is also a flaw of the system that I learnt how to play dominant 7th arpeggios without knowing why I was doing it or what exactly they were; as opposed to ordinary arpeggios.
When I asked, I think the answer was along the lines of it can be important in Jazz or something. That's the great thing about pursuing Bass as an adult purely out of interest. You get time to learn and appreciate more of the finer details.

 

[SteveCS]

At least learning for an exam is a start.
...

As I noted previously, whether or not you take the exam is secondary to following a structured path that, when guided by qualified instructors/tutors, ensures you can walk before needing to run. What the exams can do, at least in the early grades 1-5, is dip-check that you are ready for the next step and provide an independent dose of confidence.

...
When I asked, I think the answer was along the lines of it can be important in Jazz or something.
...

No genre of music, including Jazz, has any exclusive rights, privilage, dominion or paternity claim over dominant 7th chords and how they might be used. ALL music includes some mechanisms of resolution: a modal melody arriving at the final; a 12-bar V-IV-I-V7 turnaround; or the last bars of the Prelude to Suite 1 in G for solo Cello, the V7-I progression crops up everywhere. IMHO it is as fundamental to music as the add, subtract, multiply and divide operators are to mathematics and verb conjugation is to the written word. I would be leary of dismissing it as a 'just a Jazz thing'.

 

[Paps]

structured path that, when guided by qualified instructors/tutors, ensures you can walk before needing to run.

And, though imperfect, that is exactly what the graded music exam system is, especially when used in combination with tutors within a music school system. This is how many on this forum got to where they are.
It is unfortunate that a minority take a cynical view such systems but that's fine. Many not only need guidance, but also a time scale with deadlines and the reward and sense of achievement of reaching a goal before moving up the scale (unintended pun!). Personally, I never mentioned cramming etc, but still have weak spots, the wretched human that I am!! Ha ha!

 

[SteveCS]

And, though imperfect, that is exactly what the graded music exam system is
...

I know - I put my daughter through it from the age of 7. 14 years on she's now in her 3rd year at the Royal Academy of Music, BMus Classical Double Bass and getting regular well-paid gigs subbing with a range of high-class symphony orchestras. None of that would have happened without getting the exam grades and working on the scales and arpeggios including those "Doms and Dims".

 

[sean_on_bass]

understanding how to build chords is a great tool for composition, arrangement, musical analysis, and improvisation. if you strive to learn as much as you can about the mechanics of music, then learning your chords is a great endeavor. do you need to know it to play a piece well? not really, but it is great context to have if you want to understand said piece on a deeper level. There is no reason to single out a dominant 7th chord, really you should strive to learn all common chords.

 

[hhalt]

Dominant is tension, tonic is release of tension. You all are making it way too complicated. As an improvisor, we need know how to not only play over a dominant chord, but how to resolve to the tonic. As a classical player, knowing where the cadence points are (dom. to tonic) will effect how we interpret the phrase.

 

[Don Kasper]

Did someone say "Dominant 7th Chords"?
Here is Bob Berg's tune "Friday Night at The Cadillac Club" which consists of nothing but DOMINANT 7th CHORDS (of one type or another....)
Suck it, Theory Nerds!!! Welcome to the 20th Century.
(I transcribed the version on Mike Stern's recording, but couldn't find it on YT. This version below is very close to my written sketch.)

 

[TroyK]

If being an "amateur arco bassist" means reading and playing a written part in a community orchestra, then you don't *need* to understand this or a lot of things about how the musical sausage is made.

If you want understand music better, compose, arrange, or play a style of music that requires you to make decisions about what to play, then this is really the first small piece of theory that will help you... arguably be essential to doing so.

No judgement either way. I'm no good at playing written lines, especially with a bow. It all depends on what and where you're playing and why.

 

[Steve Freides]

Did someone say "Dominant 7th Chords"?
Suck it, Theory Nerds!!! Welcome to the 20th Century.

Don't most of us play 12-bar blues with I, IV, and V, all dominant 7th chords? That's what I usually do. We theory nerds - no need for caps - call these coloristic dominant 7th chords (even better, call them major-minor 7th chords, not dominant), not functional dominant 7th chords. Think Debussy. Think Cezanne. Picture pretty skies over the French countryside and fuzzy paintings.

Where were we?

-S-

 

[Don Kasper]

Thanks, T. Nerd(s)!

 

[Steve Freides]

Maqam:

So we need to qualify all this as being about music where the octave is always divided into 12 more or less equal parts. The quarter-flat tones are so cool sounding.

Being a Theory Nerd - I prefer Theory Geek, btw - I was once asked to help a student who was taking a course in the theory of Turkish Makam. (Please note that there are many kinds of Makam/maqam.) I tried but it was such a different things that I had to give up.

-S-

 

[TroyK]

If this is about helping the OP @Paps with their question, we don't need any of that. We and probably they need to understand their question better.

 

[Steve Freides]

If this is about helping the OP @Paps with their question, we don't need any of that. We and probably they need to understand their question better.

On the internet, is it required to remain on topic?

@Paps, my recommendation to you is to learn to play the piano, and learn to play all the scales in the circle of fifths - every major and all three forms of minor, 48 scales. Play each like it's a martial arts form (often called a "kata") that you practice until it's perfect because perfection of the fundamentals is a thing you can't substitute for. Then do the same on the double bass. On piano, I practice 4 octave scales, hands together, of course, until I can play them at my desired tempo at least three times in a row flawlessly and with such ease that I can carry on a conversation while I'm playing. Then do the same on the bass - my own bass playing isn't as good as my piano playing but I still wander up the neck, anyway. Certainly 2 octaves of every scale on the bass is a must.

When you can do that, the rest of the world of music theory, including an understanding of dominant 7th chords, will be within your reach. And there is no vehicle as good for understanding music theory as the piano.

And practice Dorian mode in different keys, too.

-S-

 

[TroyK]

No, it certainly is not.

I suspect, however, that @Paps is going to ask "but, why do I need to do that?"

The answer is somewhere in between "you don't, necessarily" and "hey, you brought it up, man!"

I couldn't get through one song in my world without understanding this, but it sounds like maybe he's doing something else.

 

[Steve Freides]

I couldn't get through one song in my world without understanding this, but it sounds like maybe he's doing something else.

For anyone following along, the "this" to which you're referring is your understanding of music theory and in particular, the dominant 7th chords the OP asked about. (Please correct, @TroyK, as necessary.)

A story from my piano playing life:

Without naming names, I was once asked to serve as an accompanist for a famous person who'd returned to our town to sing a benefit concert. Actor, Broadway, musicals. I got the accompaniments, the piano parts, 45 minutes before the performance, and one of the pieces was clearly too difficult for me to play as written, and as if that wasn't enough, it was in Db major. Fortunately, it wasn't a classical piece but something pops - a show tune.

It was my knowledge of how things worked in music (IOW, music theory) that let me look at the music and reduce it to something I could play - I could see the piles of notes and recognize the chords and play simpler versions of them. No one - not the performer, not several music friends in the audience - noticed that I'd altered the accompaniment. (I play piano like the music theory teacher I am - I didn't start until college, and while I'm serviceable enough to get paid to play organ and piano every Sunday in a local church, no one would mistake me for someone who majored in piano performance in college.)

Mission accomplished. Musical education appreciated.

-S-