Ear training course intervals questions

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larrysb

Mar 23, 2020
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#1
I was gifted the Beato Ear Training course (online). I'm finding it interesting, and somewhat more challenging than I thought. I'm a self-taught musician of many years. Thought it would be a snap, but it surprised me. I will admit to not having a great "ear" to begin with, hence my motivation to get better at it.

At the moment, I'm stuck on "Harmonic: Fourths and Fifths"

The idea is simple, the computer plays a random, short piano sample of a simultaneous dyad, and you tap a button whether it is a perfect 4th or perfect 5th.

While I can hear the dyad pairs are different, I seem to get these confused as to how to identify them.

On notes that are within my vocal range, I can usually vocalize each and correctly identify the interval. Outside of my singing range, more of a guessing game. So I've taken to using an instrument to assist.

I'm finding what happens is I get the root note of the pair wrong sometimes.

The other thing is the succession of samples sometimes is "misleading", when moving on to the next sequence. If the next sample has a harmonic relationship to the prior sample, it tends to throw me off.

I find the Melodic Intervals (two note intervals played separately) easier to identify than the simultaneous sounded interval.

How do I build more proficiency at this?
 
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#3
It's mainly just practice. I majored in music in college and actually did "all the things". Hands down the most useful thing I came away with was a proficiency in intervals. It will be slow going and require lots of work on your part but it will unlock a hidden super power inside you. Once you are good at intervals everything is easier and your fretting hand will just kind of know where to go from one note to the next.
 
#6
Hopefully some of this will help.

In my college ear training class, we were told to use our breath.

The idea is more like whispering than true whistling, as the intent is to make a soft sound that does not bother others in the class. You just pass your breath through your lips and or teeth, and then shape your mouth and throat to softly produce the desired the pitches and intervals. The result is softer than humming and most likely has a much wider range than your voice. However, you will probably still find it necessary to shift octaves, which gets easier with practice.

Hearing intervals comes on different mental levels with practice I never got to the point of developing really good relative pitch, where I could quickly and accurately transcribe a line if I knew the starting pitch. However, I was pretty good at playing a line on bass or piano after hearing it. I actually felt I was getting close to a break through on relative pitch, but then I had to drop out of school.

As far as recognizing the intervals, you can use a memory trick. For example, to identify perfect fourths I use my memory of the bass line from The Eagles "Lying Eyes"

1720635199012.png



As you see the line starts with perfect fourths (G to D). You may find it confusing that G is the root and D is actually the 5th of the chord. A perfect fourth down is the same note as a perfect fifth up. So you can generate both intervals from the same notes.

You may also notice the next part of the line is perfect fifths. Rather than relating the perfect fifth to a song, I usually just imagine the intervals of a triad and extract the fifth. I'll give an example near the end of this post.

I generate minor and major sixths off the perfect fifth. In other words, I hear the 5th and then move up a half step or whole step. If you want to use the memory trick, try the first two notes of the NBC theme.


I generate the minor and major seventh by stepping down from the octave or from sounding out the minor 7 or major 7 chords.

My ear training included Solfege using moveable Do. So part of the goal was learning the intervals between the syllables to strengthen our understand of intervals and the pitch center. For example Do Mi So is a major tried. Do Mi So Ti is a major 7 chord. Once you learn this, you sing the Maj 7 chord and then sing Do to Ti for the major seventh. Over time, you just learn the sound of Do to Ti, so you don't have to sing the chord. Likewise, So Ti Re Fa is a Dom 7 chord, so it's a major triad with a minor seventh. Eventually you learn the sound of the interval from So to Fa is a minor seventh.
 
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#7
With all the new tools available (like Moises) that will create stems and isolate bass lines for you, a more fun approach to ear training is just to do a lot of transcription. This in fact inspired me to create a YouTube channel teaching songs. I've transcribed over 300 songs now note for note and it has helped my ear immensely. Get a copy of Guitar Pro or something similar that will allow you to notate right over the isolated bass track. In the beginning, I had to do it with instrument in hand but now I just hear the intervals between each note and knock them out pretty quickly.
 
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#8
Wasnex said:
Hopefully some of this will help.



As far as recognizing the intervals, you can use a memory trick. For example, to identify perfect fourths I use my memory of the bass line from The Eagles "Lying Eyes"

View attachment 6977235
Click to expand...

The individual note intervals like the above line, I do reasonably well at identifying.

It's the two-note intervals like these perfect fifths that I'm finding trouble with.

ame0rhuy.png


Wasnex said:
A perfect fourth down is the same note as a perfect fifth up.
Click to expand...

Yup, I understand that from theory, and this is something I'm tripping up on the two-note dyads. I mis-identify the lower pitch note of the pair, often as the octave below the actual note sounded. Sometimes even when I hum the two notes, I screw up and transpose one of them down and goof it up.

I did pretty well picking out the major/minor thirds. The fourths and fifths played both notes at the same time are what's really giving me fits.
 
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#11
larrysb said:
At the moment, I'm stuck on "Harmonic: Fourths and Fifths"



While I can hear the dyad pairs are different, I seem to get these confused as to how to identify them.

On notes that are within my vocal range, I can usually vocalize each and correctly identify the interval. Outside of my singing range, more of a guessing game.

I'm finding what happens is I get the root note of the pair wrong sometimes.

The other thing is the succession of samples sometimes is "misleading", when moving on to the next sequence. If the next sample has a harmonic relationship to the prior sample, it tends to throw me off.

I find the Melodic Intervals (two note intervals played separately) easier to identify than the simultaneous sounded interval.

How do I build more proficiency at this?
Click to expand...
If it's out of your vocal range move it down an octave (or up, if it's lower). But , believe me, it's ALL about singing them. If you do the (vocal) work to solidify the sound of the intervals played together in your vocal range, hearing it outside that range is not going to be an issue. My teacher had a whole approach to learning to hear with clarity. I'll try to dig it up so I don't have to type the whole thing all over again. But the bottom line is - get a keyboard/piano and work on singing the chromatic intervals in first octave (in a methodical and progressive fashion) and then in the second octave (10ths instead of 3rds etc.)

Not sure why he calls this "Harmonic:4ths and 5ths"? and if you're using your instrument to hunt and peck to find the notes, you're not really "training" anything.
 
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#13
larrysb said:
How do I build more proficiency at this?
Click to expand...

Ed Fuqua said:
But , believe me, it's ALL about singing them.
Click to expand...

Ed knows of what he speaks. I have found this to be the case myself. A few months back I decided to train myself to hear inversions better. So I've been singing to my self on my commute or while jogging: Do Re Mi ; Mi So Do; So Do Mi. When the ranges get out of my normal vocal range I imagign a full choir singing it. ( really, really loud! ) I noticed an improvement with these efforts.

Ed Fuqua said:
Not sure why he calls this "Harmonic:4ths and 5ths"?
Click to expand...
As distinguished form melodic 4ths and 5ths. Simultaneous dyads.
 
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#14
ErikP.Bass said:
@larrysb How are you getting on with the challenge you stumbled on?

@Ed Fuqua Any luck finding the document with your teachers method?
Click to expand...

Still kind of stuck on the 4ths and 5ths, just working them over and over is helpful. I found that by piping the usb audio into my Yamaha digital piano by USB helped to hear the notes better via its speakers. The harder bit seems to be discerning descending vs. ascending 4-and-5 intervals, since they're inversions of each other.

Also the piano is a lot easier to discern intervals than a guitar, since guitars are intrinsically inaccurate and a digital piano is always in perfect tune and temper.

The Beato web app is a little frustrating, does odd things like stops responding properly to the play and repeat buttons. I wish the sound samples were a tad longer too.

Need to go fire it up again. I have noticed an improvement in my hearing acuity after practicing with the course though.
 
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#16
Having gone through the same issue recently, what I would recommend is that you take a keyboard (or a guitar I guess) and try to play the 4th and then resolve it to a 3rd while doing the tests/practice.. I think Rick talks about it in one of his videos. Doing if for a while really helped me feel and hear the tension in the perfect 4th and now I rarely get confused.
 
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