You know more than I, I'm pretty sure. So I ask honestly:
Is there a reason not to understand it like so ?
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Ear training course intervals questions
- Thread starter larrysb
- Start date
You know more than I, I'm pretty sure. So I ask honestly:
Is there a reason not to understand it like so ?
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
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- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
No, just never heard them referred to like that. That seems to be a rhythmic distinction, not an intervallic one.
Timing, certainly. The point, in the context of the thread title, is that the intervals between notes played consecutively, i.e. a melody, are much easier to hear, recognise and identify than the intervals between notes played concurrently, i.e. a chord. This is especially true of the 4th and 5th which are obviously inversions of each other. As a trivial example of empirical evidence, most folks recognise the 4th below of an "oompah" bass line and can differentiate that from the 5th above more associated with the Latin lines, but how many can pick out a 2nd inversion triad with the same ease and reliability?
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
- 7,548
- 69
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Well, that's what singing the intervals is for. Having that sound lock in, so hearing them played together (with the tonic defined) identifies the interval. If you don't define the tonic they don't even HAVE to be a 4th or 5th, right? If you hear C and F (for example) as just a free floating dyad, it could just as well be a major 3rd and major 6th in Ab. Or a #4 and maj 7th (enharmonically) in F# maj#11. The thing that defines them as a specific scale degree/function is the note that is the tonic.
Exactly.
But even with or without a tonic defined or established, that interval C to F is always a perfect 4th no matter the context. Invert it and it is always a perfect 5th. IMHO, 'hearing' intervals in absolute terms (A-C is always a minor 3rd), especially in melodic improvisation, is as important as hearing them as they relate to the root of the present chord (A-C can be root and 3rd of Am7, 3rd and 5th of F major, 5th and 7th of D minor or major, etc) and as the chord they are in relates to the tonic of the present key (Am7 might be tonic i in A minor, submediant iii in C major, supertonic ii in G minor or G major, subdominant iv in E minor, minor dominant v in D minor, etc). So it all matters.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
- 7,548
- 69
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
OK, so the first thing to remember is - this is a SLOW and PROGRESSIVE concept. You build a good strong foundation before moving on to the next exercise. This means either have your teacher add this to the work you are doing with them so that they can monitor your progress or record yourself and be AS OBJECTIVE AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN and not let yourself skate on anything just to keep moving forward. The temptation to "Oh why don't I just start HERE instead of at the beginning and save a bunch of time" doesn't really save you any time because you haven't built the foundation.
DUNGEON - to me it's the difference between having to see a red hexagonal thing on a post at an intersection that's got some writing on it and just knowing that it's a STOP sign and I should stop.
So starting at the beginning
1. INTERVALS IN THE FIRST OCTAVE
A. find the lowest note you can comfortably sing on the keyboard, that's going to be your "home" note. Let's say (for the sake of this example) that your note is C an octave below middle C.
B. make some "flash" cards (if you're doing this on your own) or get your teacher to randomly give you the second note, that is in the first octave, using the chromatic scale, up to the octave. So, given that your bottom note is C, your choices are Db/C#, D, D#/Eb, E, F. F#/Gb, G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb, B and C.
C Choose a card (or your teacher gives you a pitch). Play your home note (C) and the upper note (let's say the minor 6th, Ab) seperately, not in unison. So, BANG C then BANG Ab, right?
Now Play C again and sing the note. Without playing the Ab, sing that interval. Play C again, sing the Ab but this time after you SING the note, play the note on the piano. You want to pay attention to ANY adjustments you voice is making - did you need to bend up or down? Were you not hitting the pitch at all? etc. When you are singing the interval in tune and then play the note on the piano, it sounds like your voice just gets a little louder. When you get this "just a little louder" feeling and are singing all of your chromatic intervals IN TUNE, move to the second exercise which is.
MOVING BASS NOTE - instead of singing these against a constant bass note (your home note C), you have to sing every interval with a different bass note. So sitting at the keyboard, you say "I'm going to sing a minor third" (because you've made another set of flash cards with the intervals on them; if you are working with a teacher, they can randomly give you both the bottom note and the interval to sing) and sing the low note. You find that low note on the keyboard and then sing the minor third away from that note. Play the bottom, sing the top and then holding the top note, play it on the keyboard. Again, work till you have this in tune every time. Then the exercise is
IDENTIFYING INTERVALS - your teacher will play the interval in unison and hold it down. As that fades out, they will play it again and hold it down. WITHOUT VOCALIZING, identify the interval. If you are doing this yourself, you need to record yourself doing playing the interval (and after the second time when you hold it down fades out, you on the recording have to tell yourself what you just played). Which then becomes
SINGING THE INTERVAL THAT'S BEING HELD DOWN IN UNISON - it gets played once and you listen, the second time AFTER it fades, sing the bottom note then the top one. Then sing the bottom again and play the note to check it and then sing the top note and play it to check.
Then you run through the whole methodology again, but this time with intervals in the second octave. That is against your C note that is an octave below middle C, the other intervals instead of being BETWEEN your low note and middle C, they will be ABOVE middle C. This gets you working on tensions. Instead of C to E (a major third) you sing C to octave E (major 10th) etc. Which gets you to
TRIADS closed in root position - major, minor, diminished and augmented
CEG CEbG, CEbGb, CEG# and use the above methodology. Which gets you to
TRIADS closed in all inversions - C as root, C as third, C as fifth CEG, CEbAb, CFA etc
TRIADS open in root postion - CGE, CGEb, CGbEb, CG#E
TRIADS open in all inversions - C as root, then third , then fifth - CGE, CAbEb, CAF
as above.
That's about where I am now, this continues to 4 part chords (seventh chords) then 4 part with one tension, then 4 part with 2 tensions.
You get to a point where the triads lock in like a constellation or something, you aren't dealing with separate pitches or intervals, you are actually hearing the quality and color of the individual structure. Not "oh here's, the root." or "it's two major sixths" or anything like that. You just hear it as a distinct and identifiable sound.
Without wishing to derail, this ^^ is where that earlier harmonic/melodic confusion stems from.
Unison does not mean two or more different notes together at the same time - it is a special kind of interval that is actually notes of the same letter name. They don't have to be at the same time and they don't have to be in the same octave. The interval C4-C4 is a Perfect Unison, as is G3-G5. The interval C3-C4 is a special kind of Perfect Unison also called an Octave. They don't even need to be the same pitch: the interval C-C# is an Augmented Unison, as compared to the enharmonic C-Db, which is a Minor 2nd.
/Derail
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
- 7,548
- 69
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
For Mithra’s sake, feel free to replace UNISON with AT THE SAME TIME if it was that shaging confusing to read for context….
^^^This. In the end, it becomes like identifying a color. If you go to a Bengals game (god forbid, this year) and somebody asks you what color their helmets are, you don't say "Hmm, well, there's some red in there, but it's also mixed with some yellow". You just look and say "orange" without thinking about it. For more detailed/complex colors, that comes in time, too. Like going from the toddlers set of primary crayons to the box with 64 shades and a crayon sharpener on the back.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,566
- 8,283
- 7,548
- 69
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
same ear training course - I bought the whole works (Beato Platinum Bundle) a couple months back.
I'm having a really hard time with it. Wonder if I should buy a cheapo keyboard to help practice? Best I can do using only the online practice is maybe 80% for thirds (maj. vs. min.) and fourths vs. fifths.
I don't want to spend a lot on a keyboard, as I don't intend to learn piano (at least, not yet). I've only so much practice time (and practice room space!) available after all.
I'm having a really hard time with it. Wonder if I should buy a cheapo keyboard to help practice? Best I can do using only the online practice is maybe 80% for thirds (maj. vs. min.) and fourths vs. fifths.
I don't want to spend a lot on a keyboard, as I don't intend to learn piano (at least, not yet). I've only so much practice time (and practice room space!) available after all.
I think you’ll find a keyboard helpful. Even a cheap one. Guitar and bass are not accurate in pitch, while even a cheap digital keyboard is very accurate in pitch. I found it useful in helping to refine my listening using an accurate reference compared to the quiz.
I use one of the free piano apps on my iPad rather than purchase a piano. I just need a few notes, not play an entire song. I have been using an app called Piano With Songs for years. I have found it very useful as I try and transcribe charts.
Folks have said there are good phone apps for interval training. Are there specific ones that folks have used successfully? or that don't work very well? or had good luck using with students?
This is not bad! I've only done the games though.
Functional Ear Trainer - Apps on Google Play
Ear training is easy and fun with Functional Ear Trainer. Play music by ear.
As much as I don't want more gear clutter, I think a physical, if miniature, piano keyboard is going to work best for me here.
Apps may be good for when I'm away from home, or unable to practice as usual. At home, I don't want to be fiddling with my phone while I practice, if I can help it.
I do use my desktop PC during practice sessions, as that's how I view the Hal Leonard book (electronic version) and use studybass.com. As well as the Beato interactive ear trainer.
I've tried PC-based piano emulators, but I like the feel of a "real" music keyboard.
And who knows, maybe I will learn enough piano to be dangerous. I had regular lessons many years ago, so it's not a completely foreign instrument.
Apps may be good for when I'm away from home, or unable to practice as usual. At home, I don't want to be fiddling with my phone while I practice, if I can help it.
I do use my desktop PC during practice sessions, as that's how I view the Hal Leonard book (electronic version) and use studybass.com. As well as the Beato interactive ear trainer.
I've tried PC-based piano emulators, but I like the feel of a "real" music keyboard.
And who knows, maybe I will learn enough piano to be dangerous. I had regular lessons many years ago, so it's not a completely foreign instrument.
Even an inexpensive department store keyboard will be quartz accurate these days. Don't have to spend a fortune on one and an app would certainly work just as well.
I'm old enough to have grown up when pianos were virtually all made out of wood and didn't run on electricity, so I like having a decent weighted action yamaha digital piano in the house. I use it a lot, though I'm not at all proficient at playing piano. Something about having the keys all out in front of me helps establish the logic of music and over the years, I've developed rudimentary sense of where a note would generally be on a piano upon hearing it.
I'm old enough to have grown up when pianos were virtually all made out of wood and didn't run on electricity, so I like having a decent weighted action yamaha digital piano in the house. I use it a lot, though I'm not at all proficient at playing piano. Something about having the keys all out in front of me helps establish the logic of music and over the years, I've developed rudimentary sense of where a note would generally be on a piano upon hearing it.