Double Bass Englehardt C1/EC1 Questions

[damonsmith]

A 2003 Engel will be built more like a whiskey barrel than a bass. They could be good for heavily amplified gigs because they’re too heavy to feed back easily, but it won’t have much of an acoustic voice.

100%. It is a brutal instrument compared to what is out there now. People have affection for them but they are pretty rough. Practice is going to be tough and uninspiring as well. You'll trade a lot for durability and a bit less feedback. As mentioned, it will be pretty hard on your body to play, especially if you are used to a better bass. If they were $500 it would be a different story, you are going to pay as much for one as a decent hybrid.
In the moment they will get the job done, already having one is great reason to play it. In the big picture they are a tough sell.

 

[Wasnex]

Why do you find the thinner neck an issue, just the spacing? The neck on my EUB doesn't seem wide compared to the Thompson I had, and it plays nice for me.

My perception is the resulting hand shape was less than optimum (for me). I felt it negatively impacted endurance and playability. However, maybe I was just used to a thicker neck. I think there is probably an optimum neck thickness for everyone, and I prefer a bit thicker than the typical Kay.

I have an NS Design EU6 that actually has a concave channel that runs down the center of the neck. NSD claims this make them easier to play, but when I was doubling I did not find that to be the case.

If you use a baseball bat grip, you will likely prefer a thin neck.

 

[Wasnex]

That said, I've never understood the rationale that "any bass" is adequate for bluegrass.

Who said that? My perception is that Kays are highly regarded in blue grass circles, and that's okay. Doesn't make me want to own one, but I tend to go against the grain . FYI, my first BG was a Rick 4001 .

My belief is that people get used to a certain sound and that determines what they expect and what they consider the standard.

An example: Back in the late 70s, boom boxes became popular. Some of them sounded really good at reasonable volume. But of course they were not loud enough for the way people wanted to use them. So boom boxes were often cranked into distortion. This results in a certain quality to the bass and bass drum sound that would be considered undesirable on the face of it. However, it was not long before a similar sound started appearing on recordings...so the bass and bass drum would sound compressed and distorted on a high fidelity system. IMHO people got used to the quality and then started to expect it and even desire it.

Example 2: Early CDs are often considered harsh and grainy sounding. We now attribute much of the problem to mastering issues. I.E. a lot of music was reissued with the original analog mastering rather than being remastered for digital media. My impression is people became accustomed to the harshness and producers actually started mixing with a similar quality (IMHO ).

Similarly, for people who recognize and have come to love and expect the sound of an old Kay, nothing could be better.

It's a bit more complicated than this, but hopefully you get the idea.

 

[BobKay]

After 45 years of playing bluegrass, it would take a long time for me to list the number of times I’ve heard that or a similar statement. I agree that the indistinct thump of early bluegrass recordings is what people grew accustomed to hearing. That may well have become the standard in their mind. That’s OK, but it doesn’t have to be the standard for all of us.

I note that when Edgar Meyer plays bluegrass or contemporary acoustic music he doesn’t put down his regular instrument and pick up a Kay.

 

[statsc]

It's not the width of the neck from side to side, rather the thickness of the neck from top of FB to back of neck. I played Kays for a number of years with no issues, until I started playing as often as three nights per week. At that point, I noticed left hand problems.

At the same time, I wanted to move to an overall better quality instrument, and bought a hybrid with a thicker neck. Problem solved. I was playing about 50% bluegrass, and 50% pop covers in bars (with two different bands). In addition to solving the hand problem, I got an overall much better and more complex sound from the hybrid. My bandmates were playing $10,000 mandolins and $30,000 vintage banjos, so spending a few dollars more to get the best sound I could seemed reasonable to me. That said, I've never understood the rationale that "any bass" is adequate for bluegrass.

Of course I also respect the fact that "any bass" is adequate for any type of music if that is what you can afford.

I used to play a lot of bluegrass and old time string band music, but hardly any anymore. It always struck me as odd that at sessions and performances guitar players would come in with top-of-the line Martins, mandolin players with Gibson F-5’s, banjo players with Gibson Mastertones, and bass players with bottom-of-the-line Kays. Why wouldn’t you want the best possible sound/playability you can get your hands on? Also, I find the argument that Dennis Irwin and Israel Crosby used plywood basses as a justification for their use in jazz to be specious and “unhelpful.” None of us are these guys, and if ply basses were really a thing in jazz you’d see a lot more players at varying professional levels using them.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

Is there a difference between a C1 and EC1? The one I am looking at lists it as C1 but the label inside has EC1 on it. I didn't know if the E was just code for Engelhardt or if it was a different model altogether.

They're asking $1200 for it; it looks in good shape and well kept from the photos. I didn't know what these averaged price wise in today's market.

I would hope it's an honest representation as I would have to drive about 5 hours there. Not many being sold locally.

Unfortunately last year I had to sell my Thompson Hybrid last year due to a pinch I was in. This time I was looking for a Kay or equivalent of a laminat bass as I didn't want to be as concerned with climate conditions as I was the the solid top on the hybrid.

I appreciate any help with this... thanks!

Go check out thay Englehart and if you like it, buy it and get a proper setup from a good luthier. An EC-1 or C-1 is the same bass. Engles are rock solid and amplify well. Plus it’ll get you back playing upright again. Just make sure there’s no neck separation as that’s the killer with Engles/Kays.

Geographic issues are a big deal when getting a DB; I know the only reason I have my Kay is because it was all I could find 30 years ago with no string shop within 2-4 hours from me. I have since upgraded the fingerboard and have a great pro-setup on the bass nowadays.

 

[jdh3000]

Key word being "she." I'm sure a Kay or Engel would sit just fine in the hands of a woman with small hands. For us men with larger hands, they tend to be very uncomfortable.

To each his own.

This would probably work out for me since my hand aren't huge.

Go check out thay Englehart and id you like it, but it and get a proper setup from a good luthier. An EC-1 or C-1 is the same bass. Engles are rock solid and amplify well. Plus it’ll get you back playing upright again. Just make sure there’s no neck separation as that’s the killer with Engles/Kays.

Geographic issues are a big deal when getting a DB; I know the only reason I have my Kay is because it was all I could find 30 years ago with no string shop within 2-4 hours from me. I have since upgraded the fingerboard and have a great pro-setup on the bass nowadays.

I’ve read quite a bit about the necks on Eglelhardts and Kay’s. That’s the first thing I’ll check out.
I appreciate your help on this…
Thank you!

 

[Keith Rawlings]

This would probably work out for me since my hand aren't huge.

I’ve read quite a bit about the necks on Eglelhardts and Kay’s. That’s the first thing I’ll check out.
I appreciate your help on this…
Thank you!

Good luck to you and please post pics if you get the bass. I love ply basses.