EQ tips for playing with a guitarist using open D tuning?

[esoxhntr]

Not sure that this is in quite the right forum. Not sure that it is not. Anyways...

I just started playing in a trio - guitar, bass, drums. We play a variety of stuff from the 50 up to the present. Pop, rock, country, funk, disco, you name it. The guitar player is also the vocalist. He's good. The drummer is good. There's about 600 tunes on the playlist. We are booked into 2018. The gigs pay. Life is very good. BUT...

I am having a little difficulty dialling in my stage sound. I can't quite get both a full and punchy sound. It's either full, or punchy. This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

 

[Stumbo]

What equipment do you and the guitar player use?
Do you tune down to D?
Do you have PA support?

 

[ThisBass]

Not sure that this is in quite the right forum. Not sure that it is not. Anyways...

I just started playing in a trio - guitar, bass, drums. We play a variety of stuff from the 50 up to the present. Pop, rock, country, funk, disco, you name it. The guitar player is also the vocalist. He's good. The drummer is good. There's about 600 tunes on the playlist. We are booked into 2018. The gigs pay. Life is very good. BUT...

I am having a little difficulty dialling in my stage sound. I can't quite get both a full and punchy sound. It's either full, or punchy. This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

You may want persuade your guitarist that his open D tuning generates to much of lowish 'transient' frequency content which may interefere with other instruments spectrum like your bass guitar.
An more 'acedemic' consideration what might actually happen under the hood with open D tuning of a 6-string may drawn on this thread
ohms and cabs and not enough noise
sorry it's kinda bashing thread so you may want read beside 'bashing noise and academic stuff'
Although the consideration refers to bassy EQ'd 6-string an open D tuning may cause similar artefacts like it is 'academically' described in this thread.
The solution to fix the issue is just the same. Proper EQ'ing of the 6-string open D tuning helps to get a well balanced total mix of the band.

 

[Korladis]

Not sure that this is in quite the right forum. Not sure that it is not. Anyways...

I just started playing in a trio - guitar, bass, drums. We play a variety of stuff from the 50 up to the present. Pop, rock, country, funk, disco, you name it. The guitar player is also the vocalist. He's good. The drummer is good. There's about 600 tunes on the playlist. We are booked into 2018. The gigs pay. Life is very good. BUT...

I am having a little difficulty dialling in my stage sound. I can't quite get both a full and punchy sound. It's either full, or punchy. This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

What are you using as far as your amp and cabs?

Tune your bass down to D standard. Or to B standard, or get a 5er.

I play in two low tuned bands. In one, the guitarist tunes to D standard, while in the other, most of the time two of the guitarists tune to B standard (the keyboard player also plays third guitar and tunes E standard). I just dial in more mids for the band with multiple guitars. I don't really change anything about my EQ or setup for the one with a guitarist tuning to D standard.

If you have a head that can do it, try boosting your low mids.

 

[esoxhntr]

What equipment do you and the guitar player use?
Do you tune down to D?
Do you have PA support?

He uses a roland Jazz Chorus 120. I use a pair of RAD engineering powers amps into a pair of Baer ML112 cabs. I do not tune down to D. We use PA for the vocals only. I think one of the issues is that the previous bass player was a little weak - I think the guitar player is used to having to fill the sound out on his own.

 

[Korladis]

He uses a roland Jazz Chorus 120. I use a pair of RAD engineering powers amps into a pair of Baer ML112 cabs. I do not tune down to D. We use PA for the vocals only.

So tune down to D.

 

[esoxhntr]

What are you using as far as your amp and cabs?

Tune your bass down to D standard. Or to B standard, or get a 5er.

I play in two low tuned bands. In one, the guitarist tunes to D standard, while in the other, most of the time two of the guitarists tune to B standard (the keyboard player also plays third guitar and tunes E standard). I just dial in more mids for the band with multiple guitars. I don't really change anything about my EQ or setup for the one with a guitarist tuning to D standard.

If you have a head that can do it, try boosting your low mids.

I am playing a 5. Any particular frequency on the low mids (I definitely have a pre that can do that)? I think you are right about the low mids, but picking the exact frequency is a little tough.

 

[Korladis]

I am playing a 5. Any particular frequency on the low mids (I definitely have a pre that can do that)? I think you are right about the low mids, but picking the exact frequency is a little tough.

Well, I don't know what you have as far as EQ options. Do you have a parametric/semi-parametric? Graphic EQ?

Typically with Catapult, when we play live, I have 250hz and 625hz bumped up a bit.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

... into a pair of Baer ML112 cabs.

Very nice.

I am playing a 5. Any particular frequency on the low mids (I definitely have a pre that can do that)? I think you are right about the low mids, but picking the exact frequency is a little tough.

If you can figure out where your guitarist's cab is loud, and where it soft, then you might try dialing in complementary EQ... in other words, make your cabs ZIG where his cab ZAGs, so that your individual tones fit together like a two-piece jigsaw puzzle.

 

[Korladis]

Very nice.



If you can figure out where your guitarist's cab is loud, and where it soft, then you might try dialing in complementary EQ... in other words, make your cabs ZIG where his cab ZAGs, so that your tones fit together like a two-piece jigsaw puzzle.

Precisely.

The place where I mid-boost on my amp is where my guitarists' amps have a mid-dip.

 

[esoxhntr]

Well, I don't know what you have as far as EQ options. Do you have a parametric/semi-parametric? Graphic EQ?

Typically with Catapult, when we play live, I have 250hz and 625hz bumped up a bit.

This is my pre setup - it's a Radial Cube with 500 series modules.

The EQ has 4 adjustable bands, with wide and narrow band selection. Unfortunately, I can't boost both 250 and 625. I was boosting at 620 tonight and it was helping, though when I overdid it a bit the sound got a little clanky. Now, since the components in the pre are modules, and can just remove the parametric and put in a graphic EQ if necessary.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

The place where I mid-boost on my amp is where my guitarists' amps have a mid-dip.

Imo the Baer 112 is an especially good cab if one's plan is to zig where the guitarist zags. Imo it's a very intelligently voiced cab.

 

[esoxhntr]

Very nice.



If you can figure out where your guitarist's cab is loud, and where it soft, then you might try dialing in complementary EQ... in other words, make your cabs ZIG where his cab ZAGs, so that your individual tones fit together like a two-piece jigsaw puzzle.

Hello Duke. You are the perfect person to ask this next question to... I get the feeling that the 12 inch speakers in my setup are not helping the situation. It is possible that I would get a little more punch out of some 10 inch speakers?

 

[Korladis]

This is my pre setup - it's a Radial Cube with 500 series modules.

View attachment 1078903

The EQ has 4 adjustable bands, with wide and narrow band selection. Unfortunately, I can't boost both 250 and 625. I was boosting at 620 tonight and it was helping, though when I overdid it a bit the sound got a little clanky. Now, since the components in the pre are modules, and can just remove the parametric and put in a graphic EQ if necessary.

Try 450 or 500 then. Not too much, mind, just under what would be too much.

 

[esoxhntr]

Try 450 or 500 then. Not too much, mind, just under what would be too much.

Thanks! I'll mess with that a bit, maybe drop the frequency to 500 hz and widen the band width. I'm guessing there is some mud to dial out on the low band too. I'll see what i can do with that, problem is that I have to do it on the gig which gets a little hairy since once we start playing we usually go for about 5 or 6 tunes at a a clip. First world problems, right?

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Hello Duke. You are the perfect person to ask this next question to... I get the feeling that the 12 inch speakers in my setup are not helping the situation. It is possible that I would get a little more punch out of some 10 inch speakers?

10's are not necessarily more punchy than 12's.... some cabs with 10's are more punchy than some cabs with 12's, and vice versa. The devils are in the details. One of those details is motor strength. Typically we would expect two 10's to have more motor strength than one 12, but the motor in Roger's 12 is more powerful than most pairs of 10's.

I'd say try EQ first, Roger's ML112 can take more EQ (and move more air) than all but a few 210s.

 

[mcnach]

Not sure that this is in quite the right forum. Not sure that it is not. Anyways...

I just started playing in a trio - guitar, bass, drums. We play a variety of stuff from the 50 up to the present. Pop, rock, country, funk, disco, you name it. The guitar player is also the vocalist. He's good. The drummer is good. There's about 600 tunes on the playlist. We are booked into 2018. The gigs pay. Life is very good. BUT...

I am having a little difficulty dialling in my stage sound. I can't quite get both a full and punchy sound. It's either full, or punchy. This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

I very much doubt that his tuning has anything to do with your problems.
But he may have too much low end, which is not unusual in guitarists as often they use a full sound when playing alone and use the same sound with the band... and that low end interferes a lot. Getting him to tame the low end is likely to considerably open up a suitable gap where your bass will be. Also, if you use a Jazz with both pickups on (I don't know what you use, just an example), maybe switch to using only the neck one for a fat sound yet low-mids rich. Maybe a combination of both approaches will do the trick. However, a trio like yours should be easy to mix, so my guess would be overpowering lows from the guitarist.
Also, don't forget the drums. If the drums are mic'd and/or playing in a boomy stage, that kick drum can again produce crazy lows that might swamp you. It can happen too.

 

[R Baer]

This is my pre setup - it's a Radial Cube with 500 series modules.

View attachment 1078903

The EQ has 4 adjustable bands, with wide and narrow band selection. Unfortunately, I can't boost both 250 and 625. I was boosting at 620 tonight and it was helping, though when I overdid it a bit the sound got a little clanky. Now, since the components in the pre are modules, and can just remove the parametric and put in a graphic EQ if necessary.

Hello Duke. You are the perfect person to ask this next question to... I get the feeling that the 12 inch speakers in my setup are not helping the situation. It is possible that I would get a little more punch out of some 10 inch speakers?

I'm not sure what your EQ is capable of, but the Ml112 is plenty strong in the 600Hz to 1k range, so boosting there is going to raise the mids even further, which in turn will convince your ears that the low end just got thinner. With most basses, I typically like the Ml112 with a little bump somewhere between 80Hz and 120Hz, depending on the room and then a little boost at 400Hz. Try that and see if you don't think the low end gets punchier.

 

[fhm555]

I play with a singer songwriter who almost always plays in open D tuning when he's playing his acoustic and standard when playing electric. I'm using a couple Avatar 112 cabs and standard tuning and just dial in to fill the voids left when he tunes open. I do tend to use my active bass when i work with him which allows me to adjust on the fly when he switches from electric to acoustic, but other than that it's never been a deal or problem for either of us.

 

[Spidey2112]

Not sure that this is in quite the right forum. Not sure that it is not. Anyways...

I just started playing in a trio - guitar, bass, drums. We play a variety of stuff from the 50 up to the present. Pop, rock, country, funk, disco, you name it. The guitar player is also the vocalist. He's good. The drummer is good. There's about 600 tunes on the playlist. We are booked into 2018. The gigs pay. Life is very good. BUT...

I am having a little difficulty dialling in my stage sound. I can't quite get both a full and punchy sound. It's either full, or punchy. This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.

Max your sliders and crank it to '11'... open 'D' tuning, indeed... show him your 'Tenacious D'!