EQ tips for playing with a guitarist using open D tuning?

#22
Rolling off the bass => I second that.

In our hard rock/punk rock trio, the guitarist (EDIT: tuned D-standard as well) has his bass rolled off, he is ruling the mids/higher mids.
As bass player (tuned E-standard), I have rolled off the bass even more, but dial in some 40 Hz for warmness/roundness (Ultra-low on the Ampeg V4-B). Punchy bass (no woof or boom, though, which I don't want) - and I don't interfere with the others.
We're all adjusting to the drums volume, and all blends quite well together, IOE; in our ears. Only the drummer and the guitarist interfere with my bass, quite often :D

@esoxhntr :
When you and your mates have found a suitable setting for your amps, post it. Might help others using similar amps.
Much success and fun for you and your band \m/
 
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#23
I would listen very carefully to what's really going on in the band. Is it the open D tuning or are different instruments competing for the space that the bass usually occupies? If there are keys in the band, a keyboardist with a heavy left hand or even just playing notes down in the bass range will cause problems.

As the band's sound guy, I can tell you that high-passing those instruments works wonders. A guitar and/or keyboard high-passed at 100 Hz just isn't going to mess with my sound. :D

Tom
 
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#24
mcnach said:
I very much doubt that his tuning has anything to do with your problems.
But he may have too much low end, which is not unusual in guitarists as often they use a full sound when playing alone and use the same sound with the band... and that low end interferes a lot. Getting him to tame the low end is likely to considerably open up a suitable gap where your bass will be. Also, if you use a Jazz with both pickups on (I don't know what you use, just an example), maybe switch to using only the neck one for a fat sound yet low-mids rich. Maybe a combination of both approaches will do the trick. However, a trio like yours should be easy to mix, so my guess would be overpowering lows from the guitarist.
Also, don't forget the drums. If the drums are mic'd and/or playing in a boomy stage, that kick drum can again produce crazy lows that might swamp you. It can happen too.
Click to expand...
I agree that the guitar player must tame the low end of his tone. Some guitar tracks can have a low cut anywhere from 100hz to 250hz depending on the mix.
 
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#25
esoxhntr said:
This has not been a problem before. It's not like the guitarist plays all that loud, but the open D tuning he uses is making it hard to sit properly in the stage mix. I have never played with a guitarist who tunes like this, so if anyone has any ideas regarding EQ, cabinets, basses, pickups, whatever, I'd be grateful to hear about it.
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Does your guitarist the lowish D tuning for pitch range reason of his voice or does he the D for sound reason of his guitar?

If he does the D tuning only for pitch range reason of his voice then he might use a stronger string gauge set to (nearly) get back the sound of an normal E tuning.

If he does the low D tuning for sound reason only (which is mostly the reason for doing it) you may want low tune your bass as well to get a similar 'deep' sound effect like produced by the guitar.

Keep in mind that low tunings do something that results in 'noticeable' different sound versus 'normal' tuned sound of the instrument. With all other things beeing equal it's hard to understand that some low down tuning does cause a very large effect than some low down tuning might predict.

If you use a larger string gauge set for the low D tuning and as well adjust the neck than you might get back a similar tone characteristic like you already have with normal E tuning.

I remember a couple of years ago my guitarist and me tuned down to D just to 'support' pitch range of the vocals a little bit.
We both didn't liked the sound our instruments responded with D tuning and noticed quickly we would have to set up our instruments completely differently to get the 'normal' sound back.
Instead we kicked off those songs too tough for the vocals.
 
#26
ThisBass said:
If he does the low D tuning for sound reason only (which is mostly the reason for doing it) you may want low tune your bass as well to get a similar 'deep' sound effect like produced by the guitar.
Click to expand...

Might end up in too much bass/mud - but anyway, worth a try, too.
Some like carving their sound by cutting via EQ, others like building their sound by adding via EQ - both cool, IMO.
Just reminding, to also focus on recognizing when drums, bass, and guitar, might be competing in the same ranges or spots.

@OP: Do you record? Each instrument on separate channels? If so, then experiment with EQs on the guitar and bass track, together. Then you easily can find out what might be missing and what might be too much, already - and both of you'd find an agreeable solution without fighting for bass territory :D
 
#27
There is a way to resolve this.

Use a phone/pad spectral analysis app. On an ipad I use an app called spectrum (Spectrum Analyzer for iPad, iPhone and iPod touch), there are many similar programs. Look at a Octave RTA to see the frequencies and their level. This provides a starting point for you to adjust your EQ so that you don't walk over one another.


 
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#28
Michael Schreiber said:
@esoxhntr :
When you and your mates have found a suitable setting for your amps, post it. Might help others using similar amps.
Much success and fun for you and your band \m/
Click to expand...

Not trying to butt in, but IME, a suitable setting is not a static thing, it's not something that you can just preset and you are golden. You final setting will be determined by so many things the best you can hope for by presetting an EQ is to be close in a venue you've played before. I've always adjusted my amp from whatever setting it was on the last time i used it. I'm familiar enough with how it's settings effect the output i can usually dial it in with a couple of quick test runs and tweaking. One thing i find invaluable is having a band mate play my bass while i walk out into the room and listen. Second best is have a band mate do the walk and tell me what they hear. I can do the same with any amp, but it's just quicker with one i'm familiar with.

Occasionally i get a bandmate telling me i'm too boomy or shrill or whatever, and i'll adjust accordingly, so it pays to have bandmates you can trust to be interested in what the band sounds like as opposed to only being concerned about what they sound like.
 
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#30
I would recommend this rig
082.jpg
 
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#31
fhm555 said:
Occasionally i get a bandmate telling me i'm too boomy or shrill or whatever, and i'll adjust accordingly, so it pays to have bandmates you can trust to be interested in what the band sounds like as opposed to only being concerned about what they sound like.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. But you're writing it yourself; you already can adjust it and have people who can recognize what's too few / too much. At first, I had been as clueless as the OP; something's not right, but how to fix it, what EQ settings?

So, I find it nice, to read when someone found a solution to his problem. In the worst case, nothing happens - but in the best case, it's a good hint for other fellows having the same problem, IMO. Like, "oh, that guy rolled off the bass completely? Geeze, gotta try that!" That was it for me - thanks to Dino Monoxelos, by the way :D
 
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#35
mcnach said:
I very much doubt that his tuning has anything to do with your problems.
But he may have too much low end, which is not unusual in guitarists as often they use a full sound when playing alone and use the same sound with the band... and that low end interferes a lot. Getting him to tame the low end is likely to considerably open up a suitable gap where your bass will be. Also, if you use a Jazz with both pickups on (I don't know what you use, just an example), maybe switch to using only the neck one for a fat sound yet low-mids rich. Maybe a combination of both approaches will do the trick. However, a trio like yours should be easy to mix, so my guess would be overpowering lows from the guitarist.
Also, don't forget the drums. If the drums are mic'd and/or playing in a boomy stage, that kick drum can again produce crazy lows that might swamp you. It can happen too.
Click to expand...
+1 . Good replies so far...I think its more a case of talking to the guitarist about the overall sound instead of "his" sound. In my last band, I had the same issue, except it was with two guitarists. Both had alot of low end in their tone (along with way too much distortion), me and the drummer tried to politely suggest taming it down but that sailed right over their heads. It got so frustrating for me as you only heard the lowest fundamental of my tone, more like you could only tell if i STOPPED playing. I might have well been playing a $100 bass direct rather than the expensive gear i have if all you could hear is barely the lowest tones.
 
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#36
Thanks to all for the help so far. I have a number of possible solutions to investigate. Just as some added info...

For those who suggest that the guitarist roll off on the lows, I would tend to agree. I mentioned earlier in the thread that the bassist i replaced was a little weak and I'm pretty sure that part of what I'm hearing is the guitarist compensating for that with too much bottom. As mentioned in the thread title, his tuning is open D (DADF#AD).

The drummer is worth his weight in gold. He plays with really solid time, never gets busy, and keeps his volume way down. He is not part of the issue. Furthermore, I can hear him clearly at all times - in fact, the only thing I'm having trouble hearing is me, and that's not an issue all the time. I will now start to listen to see if this problem is key dependant.

This is not a room based issue. In the five gigs we have played since I joined the band at the start of March, the problem has persisted in much the same manner in every single room. Even in the two rehearsals we have had its been the same. The problem diminishes when we play a little quieter. Again, this is not a very loud band.
 
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#39
esoxhntr said:
I have a 5 string. I am not tuning my bass in D. It may help for this situation in terms of EQ, but raises all sorts of other issues that I don't want to deal with.
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You'll notice I did not suggest tuning your bass in D. Specifically, I advocated for the use of a low D note below E. If your fiver is tuned BEADG, then you've already got a low D below E at your disposal. If you're using it judiciously, then you're doing what I (and several others) have been suggesting.

That's all I got. I can't diagnose a tone issue without hearing your rig and the guitarist's rig together. The problem could be his rig for all we know.
 
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