Fender no longer using rosewood ?

And the bitching about streaky ebony fretboards will be endless :bag:
Honestly, I think guitar makers need to seriously think about wood alternatives, switching to another wood species will just delay the problem. For the exotic woods at least, I don't think we'll run out of maple or spruce anytime soon.

But especially when it is a fretboard, whose influence on the sound of an instrument is rather small, I think other materials could be used. Such as Richlite fretboard on Martins or Gibsons.

Some manufacturers (e.g. Wal) have begun offering Rocklite as an alternative fretboard material. Of course Modulus used phenolic.
 
Honestly, I think guitar makers need to seriously think about wood alternatives, switching to another wood species will just delay the problem. For the exotic woods at least, I don't think we'll run out of maple or spruce anytime soon.

They (CITIES) need to seriously revisit their decision to put ALL species of dalbergia (rosewood) on the endangered list regardless of whether they are endangered or not.

Saturday morning tonewood rambling started. I think this applies to rosewood, ebony or any other hard to find wood and how cosmetics and sound quality interact and affect it's use as a tonewood. If not, hopefully it's at least interesting! :)

As far as spruce goes, I'm a luthier who also cuts Adirondack Spruce trees, which long ago was the only species of spruce used by the big acoustic builders like Martin and Gibson. They stopped using red spruce some time during the 1940s because there were not enough good trees left. So they switched to Sitka. Sitka was great because the trees were abundant, huge, old and it was very easy to find trees with near perfect, straight, even, 18+ grain per inch.

In general, compared to Sitka, Red Spruce trees are not abundant, are small , and don't grow evenly. So the wood has a different look with wider, less even grain and more color variation. The problem is from 1950-today, people have become accustomed to the "look" of perfect Sitka tops on guitars all guitars, even cheaper ones. So people end up wanting the sound of a red spruce top with the looks of a Sitka top, and as someone that cuts red spruce trees I can tell you, that top is one in a million. I stopped cutting trees to sell the wood a few years back because customers had become ridiculously picky about cosmetic quality, and now I only cut for my own use.

The interesting thing is with red spruce cosmetics (grain per inch, even, straight) make no predictable difference in sound. With Sitka it does. That's because the early growth (light colored rings) on Red Spruce are extremely hard/dense/fibrous/strong compared to the early growth on Sitka. That means Red spruce is strong regardless of how many grain per inch, whereas Sitka depends much more on the late growth (dark rings) for strength, so a top with wide grain usually means a light, weak, floppy top. In fact, the best acoustic guitar I've ever heard in my life was a 1930s Martin D-18 with a red spruce top that had 4 grains per inch, and a huge wave in the grain!

One of the nice parts about cutting trees only for my own use is I stopped being "disappointed" when I cut a tree that was not cosmetically perfect. I began to really appreciate the look of the coarser, uneven grained wood instead of thinking "how the heck am I going to sell that?"

Here's two instruments built with a tree I cut in 2004. Keep in mind, I could hardly give this wood away because it was so "ugly", which may turn out to be a good thing because I ended cutting it into billets for archtop guitars and keeping a lot of it. This is a parlor guitar built by Hans Brentrupp. He was the only builder that could not get enough tops from this tree:
Brentrupguitar.jpg


This is one of three basses I finished recently I call "Double-Bass Guitar":
DSC04089.JPG


DSC04091.JPG
 
My two most recent boards are listed as Kalimantan ebony. This one's identical to my tele. There's no listing on the Wood Database site for Kalimantan ebony - only Macassar ebony, Diospyros celebica, which is itself listed as vulnerable though not on the CITES list,
Pricing/Availability: Likely to be extremely expensive, along with most other Ebony members in the Diospyros genus. The tree grows slowly, has a very limited natural habitat, and is highly desired for the wood’s aesthetic appeal and toughness.

Sustainability: This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices, but is on the IUCN Red List. It is listed as vulnerable due to a population reduction of over 20% in the past three generations, caused by a decline in its natural range, and exploitation.
This was in a post a week or so ago. Quite enlightening actually.


That Taylor clip is enlightening. Thanks for putting it up. He's a good sport.

Where does Kalimantan ebony fit? I have no idea - confusion reigns :wacky: but I love mine to bits. And I'm feeling a little guilty now.
 
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This is just absolutely ridiculous, as others have said, very high end builders have been using it for a long time. Fender has used it on higher end models.

This is such a typical TB knee jerk reaction...

Your reaction to my opinion is more "knee jerk" than anything else. I said nothing about high end builders using it or anyone using it at all. It certainly can be done right but in general, Pau Ferro is lighter and that looks cheaper IMO. Someone agreed with me. You don't think there are others out there that feel the same way or are they all "ridiculous" also?

There are two different issues here with a clear division between them. One is the suitability of a material for a particular task, and someone's subjective like or dislike of the appearance thereof.One does not necessarily relate to the other.

Sort of like profiling on an inanimate level. Pretzel logic.

Thank you.
 
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Sorry if this has been posted before, the search turned up nothing.

According to the Andertons website: Fender Announce Transition From Rosewood - CITES | Andertons Blog
Fender will be discontinuing the use of rosewood and will be switching to Pau Ferro for the Mexican and Ebony for the American Elite models due to the CITES regulations on rosewood.

This will take effect somewhere in June / July of this year.

:wideyed:
You usually hear gibson complaining about this, I heard that ebony is heading towards a ban as well. Apparently Indian rosewood is becoming hard to get and that's why we're seeing "baked maple." If vintage fender's have anything going for them it's the Brazilian rosewood. I wonder what wood do chibsons have for fretboards.
 
I know that there is a difference between the workmanship and the materials used. I used to work in manufacturing for over 15 years and performed miracles on a regular basis considered what I was given (machine, tooling and materials) and the final product.

My point is that the small sampling of light colored fretboards I picked up had poor workmanship. Those happen to be on Epiphone & Gibson Les Paul guitars.

Is there light colored fretboards with top notch quality work out there? Probably.
Do they also have the Epiphone & Gibson logos on their headstocks? Possibly.
Will I find one myself? No because I associate light color fretboards with poor workmanship the same way a child who touches a hot stove associates that with pain.
It`s fine to like a dark fretboard but your prejudice against lighter coloured ones is baseless. Also, pau ferro comes in darker shades. The pau ferro on my Fodera and Ken Smith looks like rosewood.
 
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They (CITIES) need to seriously revisit their decision to put ALL species of dalbergia (rosewood) on the endangered list regardless of whether they are endangered or not.

Saturday morning tonewood rambling started. I think this applies to rosewood, ebony or any other hard to find wood and how cosmetics and sound quality interact and affect it's use as a tonewood. If not, hopefully it's at least interesting! :)

As far as spruce goes, I'm a luthier who also cuts Adirondack Spruce trees, which long ago was the only species of spruce used by the big acoustic builders like Martin and Gibson. They stopped using red spruce some time during the 1940s because there were not enough good trees left. So they switched to Sitka. Sitka was great because the trees were abundant, huge, old and it was very easy to find trees with near perfect, straight, even, 18+ grain per inch.

In general, compared to Sitka, Red Spruce trees are not abundant, are small , and don't grow evenly. So the wood has a different look with wider, less even grain and more color variation. The problem is from 1950-today, people have become accustomed to the "look" of perfect Sitka tops on guitars all guitars, even cheaper ones. So people end up wanting the sound of a red spruce top with the looks of a Sitka top, and as someone that cuts red spruce trees I can tell you, that top is one in a million. I stopped cutting trees to sell the wood a few years back because customers had become ridiculously picky about cosmetic quality, and now I only cut for my own use.

The interesting thing is with red spruce cosmetics (grain per inch, even, straight) make no predictable difference in sound. With Sitka it does. That's because the early growth (light colored rings) on Red Spruce are extremely hard/dense/fibrous/strong compared to the early growth on Sitka. That means Red spruce is strong regardless of how many grain per inch, whereas Sitka depends much more on the late growth (dark rings) for strength, so a top with wide grain usually means a light, weak, floppy top. In fact, the best acoustic guitar I've ever heard in my life was a 1930s Martin D-18 with a red spruce top that had 4 grains per inch, and a huge wave in the grain!

One of the nice parts about cutting trees only for my own use is I stopped being "disappointed" when I cut a tree that was not cosmetically perfect. I began to really appreciate the look of the coarser, uneven grained wood instead of thinking "how the heck am I going to sell that?"

Here's two instruments built with a tree I cut in 2004. Keep in mind, I could hardly give this wood away because it was so "ugly", which may turn out to be a good thing because I ended cutting it into billets for archtop guitars and keeping a lot of it. This is a parlor guitar built by Hans Brentrupp. He was the only builder that could not get enough tops from this tree:
View attachment 1137022

This is one of three basses I finished recently I call "Double-Bass Guitar":
View attachment 1137023

View attachment 1137024
The decision to put all Dalbergia's on the CITES list is not really totally fair but I can see why they did it. They know that tree poachers would cut down "the real thing" and label it as one of the species not on the list. Apparently they've added Bubinga onto the list even though it's not a Dalbergia. I guess we're all going to have to get a lot more comfortable with maple boards as Pau Ferro and X,Y and Z following it will get logged out too. This could actually be a real boon to the used market.
 
The rosewood on my Jazz is lighter than most of the pau ferro examples shown here. The rosewood on my Aerodyne is almost certainly dyed since its almost ebony in color. It's all good.
 
Most of these replacement for rosewood fretboards will get on CITES anyway. This is because most are sourced from the same forests as rosewood. IUCN talked about adding Pau Ferro, and will probably do so in the next couple of years.

I also don't believe CITES was properly ratified in the USA and therefore is not legally a treaty but an agreement. Certainly not the current CITES. However, IUCN likes to call it a treaty.
 
Doing fine with my cheap pau ferro-equipped instrumentView attachment 1137019 View attachment 1137020

Yeah man, that's the height of cheapness right there! Gotta be the worst looking bass I've ever seen. Ugh! What we're you thinking? Like it was made for this thread. In fact, once the thread gets shut down and it's purpose is served, I'll take it off your hands, but shhhh, I don't want others to know I've got such bad taste...
 
I guess I'll weigh in here.

Off topic: I have had the opposite experience to 5544 as my two pau ferro boards are amazing and on amazing instruments. One is a warmoth-neck fret less with an unknown body. It feels and sounds great. Much better than the $400 I paid for it. The other is a Peavey Millennium 5. If you read much of my post history you will know that I'm a bit of a peavey-aholic so not much explanation needed there.

On topic: Actually I think this is a good move for the big F as they are a global brand and the new cites ******** would otherwise make their business a lot harder. Added bonus is that now the rosewood boards from now will be "collectible and rare" in a decade or so. Other personal preference issues will be vocally shared I'm sure and as with every decision the there will be winners and losers. Sad but true.
 
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