Double Bass Has anyone taught themselves DB?

#21
Right but negative criticism has the same problem. If there are no explanations of WHY, its useless. If I walk in to a lesson, play something and my teacher says "you suck", all that'll give me is a sinking feeling. I already know I suck, but without a specific critique, I'm screwed. That's why I reject this whole positive/negative thing - both are only as good as the supporting evidence and suggestions.
 
#23
Originally posted by lermgalieu
Right but negative criticism has the same problem. If there are no explanations of WHY, its useless. If I walk in to a lesson, play something and my teacher says "you suck", all that'll give me is a sinking feeling. I already know I suck, but without a specific critique, I'm screwed. That's why I reject this whole positive/negative thing - both are only as good as the supporting evidence and suggestions.
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I mean, "you suck" figuratively, not literally. "You Suck" is the sum total of all the nit-picking criticism, and the gimme-the-bass-to-show-you-how-it's-done endured at any given lesson.
 
#24
Special K:
It's ironic - I was smiling my way through the thread as three times you articulated my thoughts before I could post them, and then we end up fundamentally, diametrically opposed: "Teachers aren't supposed to be objective," and "Positive reinforcement is for children and insecure people." There's no way I can buy this. If this answers your individual need as a student, fine, but I find it too great a leap to go on to prescribe it for every student and every teacher. I thank God that neither Linda McKnight nor Michael Moore operate that way. And if you think that means they aren't demanding, guess again. If you're training to improve in the high jump, and you finally clear your height goal, that doesn't mean your training was wasted. Raise the bar. But more important to me than positive vs negative feedback is relentless honesty. I believe this is what Ed Fuqua (the covetous one) was saying, and I agree.
 
#25
I may be missing the boat on this positive vs negative reinforcement issue, but since I'm a jazz teacher (piano, toybass, theory, etc...) I'd like to add my .02c. Positive reinforcement is an extremely important part of teaching for both teacher and student. My piano teacher back in undergrad (back when dinosaurs walked the earth) and my current DB teacher are masters at constructive positive reinforcement. It's assumed that when you recieve praise for the work you've been doing between lessons (i.e. - saying "great", or "excellent" or whatever) it simply means, "Wonderful...that sounds a hell of a lot better than it did before. Of course, there's still room for improvment..." rather than "Great, you've completely mastered that, and there's no room to talk about it any more, ever". IMO, this type of positive reinforcement (the first kind, not the second) is absolutely essential to any teaching situation I can think of, whether I'm the teachER or the teachEE.

Personally, I wouldn't study with a teacher who didn't give me positive feedback when I was doing something right, but that's just me. I had a 2 1/2 hour lesson with Rufus last year, and he was one of the most positive teachers I've ever met. When I was starting to get something, I got rewarded with direct unwavering eye contact and a smile bright enough to light an entire city block. I've been lucky enough to do some ensemble teaching with him at the summer camps, and the students respond to his positive energy in such a way that he is able to get a lot further with them in a shorter time than just about any other teacher I've ever met.
 
#26
Originally posted by Don Higdon
[B I thank God that neither Linda McKnight nor Michael Moore operate that way. And if you think that means they aren't demanding, guess again. If you're training to improve in the high jump, and you finally clear your height goal, that doesn't mean your training was wasted. Raise the bar. But more important to me than positive vs negative feedback is relentless honesty. I believe this is what Ed Fuqua (the covetous one) was saying, and I agree. [/B]
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I'm continually raising the bar, but each time I clear I don't need to someone to tell I cleared it. Tell me, "yeah you cleared it, but I think if you arch back a little more you'll clear it with greater ease." What can I do to fine tune it? What can be better?

Don't get me wrong, neither of the cats I'm studying with are negative bastards. They're cool, friendly, etc. But, it's a teacher's job to criticize, ie. be critical, as in point out the flaws, tell the student what should be better, etc., and to keep the student raising the bar. If the teacher ain't doin' that, he ain't doin' his job. That's all I'm saying. And there's always something that can be better about someone's playing. It's the teacher's job to find it and tell the student about. You don't have to be a mean spirited bastard to be critical. I'll bet Moore and McNight do pretty much what I'm talking about.

To call all of this positive reinforcement vs. negative reinforcement is terribly inappropriate. Positive reinforcement by definition is the reinforcement of positive attitudes or behaviors, like what parents and religion and stuff are supposed to do. Negative reinforcement is the reinforcement of negative sh*t like drugs and violence; movies, tv, video games are offenders.

I'm trying to envision a lesson in which the teacher isn't critical. I can't. The criticism is what makes it a lesson. If you get a pat on the back or smile or whatever, that's great, but your playing better get criticized. I don't know what's so hard to understand.
 
#27
Dave, I didn't see anyone say that a teacher shouldn't be critical. Maybe we are getting bogged down in semantics here. I think all I was saying is that being *critical* can be both positive, ie "You are doing that right because of X, Y Z, keep doing it." and negative, ie, "You are doing that wrong, due to X, Y, Z". Both are effective, and I don't mean to imply that "negative", means its a bad thing. It's not (it just means don't do X in the future, do Y instead). Criticism is a fundamentally neutral thing though - it is an honest look at something with a critical, professional eye, and a accompanying critique of both the successful and unsuccessfull aspects of it. That's probably the best I can say it - you are right, "positive reinforcement" and "negative reinforcement" carry to much semantic attachment to both psychology and children to accurately use in this discussion.
 
#28
ok, this is not to be a smartass, but I am a former English major, so this is near and dear to my heart. Notice only one mentions anything specifically negative...

crit·i·cism (krt-szm)
n. Abbr. crit.

The act of criticizing, especially adversely.
A critical comment or judgment.

The art, skill, or profession of making discriminating judgments and evaluations, especially of literary or other artistic works.
A review or article expressing such judgment and evaluation.
Detailed investigation of the origin and history of literary documents, such as the Bible.
 
#29
Originally posted by fretless5
I suppose my main reason for not going to a teacher is $$ (currently unemployed).
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Well I pay $50 per lesson for an hour with the principal bass at the lyric opera. Throw in another $3.60 for bus and L fare to and from, that would be $53.60 to come up with each week if I were unemployed. I think between collection and redemption of cans and bottles and sales of precious bodily fluids, that target could be easily made.

Actually if I were unemployed, I would put even more effort into getting to lessons as that's 40+ hours per week that I could dedicate to practicing.

-dh
 
#31
It depends upon two things. 1. what you wish to accomplish. 2. your talent level.

I started with the sole intent to play simple, hillbilly music. This doesn't require much training. However I went from that to playing in a five piece combo playing old standards and jazz in clubs. In my 66.5 years I have played various versions of jazz, Country, Western Swing and Bluegrass. I played bass on one recording session with a fourteen piece orchestra. The only "lessons" I was ever privileged to have was listening and watching professionals. My bass playing was initially attractive to band leaders because of impeccable timing.
 
#32
I think tah having a teacher would be wonderful.
I am a bluegrasser and played guitar for years before decidind to go DB. It was the best decision I ever made. I love playing DB but it is difficult to find a teacher in my area.

I have tried to find instruction(especially in bluegrassDB) but to no avail. Therefore I have had to rely on what I have seen and heard other bassers doing.

I have been successful in hanging in and not looking foolish, but I know that lessons would be much help.

I just do not know where to find such help
 
#34
Man, there are a lot of us uneducated DB'ers here in GA! Welcome Wildbill...I'm south of you just a bit, in Columbus. You might check with the nearest college and ask someone in their music dept for a recommendation. That's how I found my teacher. Also, does Chattanooga have a Symphony Orchestra? Find out who the bassist is and talk to that person.
 
#35
I am amazed at the number of times "Bluegrass" comes up in the discussions over here on the DB side (not just this thread). I am pretty sure that I have never heard a "Bluegrass" tune and I don't think it is something that has made its way over here in the UK?!

So I don't know much about it, but it seems to be mentioned in the context of music that you can play without knowing much theory or having a teacher. So it strikes me that, this must be what happens to the bass guitar guys who insist that you don't need to know any theory - when they feel they are too old for rock/punk/speed metal or whatever, they turn to Bluegrass?
 
#37
Who fixes basses in your area? Don't know if I have any luthiers in my list near you but check out - Double Bass Links Page - http://www.gollihur.com/kkbass/basslink.html and the luthiers directory at http://www.gollihur.com/kkbass/luthiers.html

If that doesn't help and you don't know of any, get in touch with the band director/instrumental music teacher in local high schools and ask where they get their basses fixed (and about a teacher while you have them). Get hold of a luthier and ask if they can recommend someone.
 
#39
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
I am pretty sure that I have never heard a "Bluegrass" tune and I don't think it is something that has made its way over here in the UK?!
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If you've ever heard much American banjo music it was probably bluegrass.

So I don't know much about it, but it seems to be mentioned in the context of music that you can play without knowing much theory or having a teacher.
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It's a folk based music with a fairly standardized repertoire. The music is played on some combination of acoustic guitar, banjo, fiddle, mandolin, dobro and bass. The tunes are not harmonically very complex just played at breakneck speed. Usually the music is about soloists' chops (and there are some amazingly talented players). The traditional role of the bass in bluegrass is to thump out roots and 5's - to provide the pulse. Sure there are exceptions, but mainly there's not much else for the bassist to do. You probably don't need a "teacher" or much theory you just learn by listening to it and doing it. Of course without a teacher you wouldn't be able to get much beyond root/5th but that's not usually an issue in traditional bluegrass.

So it strikes me that, this must be what happens to the bass guitar guys who insist that you don't need to know any theory - when they feel they are too old for rock/punk/speed metal or whatever, they turn to Bluegrass?
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I seriously doubt that there is much crossover between those genres. Rock/punk/speed metal folks would think bluegrass a very uncool hillbilly music although they might grant that the guitar players "can play really fast." As in the case of a lot of folk musicians you are usually born into it. And there's no way you would bring a BG to play bluegrass - you'd be booed off the stage.
 
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