That would be typical musical theater. Overdone over the top drama and energy. Many of those actors live their personal lives that way as well
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True that.
I’ve been in choral and classical performances where I had as much pencil lead on my score as there was ink. If the music director has definite ideas about something (or is a complete control freak as some are) your opportunity to contribute anything to the performance besides the notes as written and annotated are slim.
My “problem” with Superstar is I’ve played most of its songs in church/worship settings where we were allowed, nay encouraged, to really rock out with it. So that’s the way I usually want to hear it played. But what works for a straight musical performance doesn’t necessarily translate out to a good musical theater performance.
But whatever. I thought it was a credible production and enjoyable. There’s things in it and about it I would have done differently. But that’s me and probably better than half of us at TB who saw it. We’re bass players. Messing with things in order to get that perfect bass line only we can hear is what we do.
We’d have to see the book for this show to know. The bass player played the counterpoint you referred to earlier the same way twice, which, given its somewhat unnatural flow, leads me to believe it was written. Regardless, I thought he did a great job.
BTW, I could hear the bass player quite well in my 7.1 HT — I guess that’s a validation of my setup and EQ!
Another thought ... I’ve never played this show, and we Catholics don’t use these “hymns” in our services. 
So I may not be the best critic of this production!
So I may not be the best critic of this production!Another thought ... I’ve never played this show, and we Catholics don’t use these “hymns” in our services.
I used to be heavily involved in Catholic liturgical music for many years.
And for the record, we did use some of the music from Superstar (and later on Godspell) in Catholic services for most of the 70s. You won’t likely see it again anytime soon since the conservative elements in the church starting under JP-II have officially killed off the “Folk Mass” and have since severely restricted what music is currently being allowed for Roman Catholic services. Now, if it ain’t in the official songbook, it’s a no go.
(Minor niggling point: the musical numbers in Superstar don’t really meet the definition of a hymn. On the other hand, Godspell’s All Good Things and Day by Day do.)
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Agreed. The Music Ministers I play for/with are connected with Oregon Catholic Press, whose composers have commented that the “rules” governing Catholic liturgical music have tightened quite a bit. Regarding your niggle - that why I put hymn in quotes. It was meant as a light-hearted High Church, parochial sorta thing.I used to be heavily involved in Catholic liturgical music for many years.
And for the record, we did use some of the music from Superstar (and later on Godspell) in Catholic services for most of the 70s. You won’t likely see it again anytime soon since the conservative elements in the church under JP-II have officially killed off the “Folk Mass” and have since severely restricted what music is currently being allowed for Roman Catholic services. Now, if it ain’t in the official songbook, it’s a no go.
(Minor niggling point: the musical numbers in Superstar don’t really meet the definition of a hymn. On the other hand, Godspell’s All Good Things and Day by Day do.)
Regarding your niggle - that why I put hymn in quotes. It was meant as a light-hearted High Church, parochial sorta thing.
I figured as much. My niggle was in parenthesis with hopes it would be seen as a general comment and not part of our dialog. Once a church music director always a music director I guess. There was a time when I felt definitions like that were important. And old habits die hard.
Yup, been there, done that. I haven't thought of the words "Folk Mass" in a long time...
I think that’s exactly what was hoped would happen. But either way, you might just as well forget it. Current opinion of those with a say in the matter feel the Folk Mass was a colossal lapse in judgement on the part of J23 and V2. I’ve actually heard it referred to scathingly in a homily as: “…a misguided bow to the popular culture (if we wish to call it that) of those sorry times.”
It’s over.
So it goes.
Onward!
Probably true now, In an earlier post, I mentioned my involvement of a production of JCSS. Our production was part of a retreat conducted for Catholic youth held by the Archdiocese of Santa Fe in the summer of 1971. (Catholics do use hymns by the way).... I’ve never played this show, and we Catholics don’t use these “hymns” in our services.
Does an official songbook exist. I am going say there are several official songbooks, and to the best of my knowledge, there are restrictions, how severe, I am not in a position to say how restricted. I can say it is less restricted than what I thought. If the music is not one that is approved, then approval of the local bishop is probably needed.I used to be heavily involved in Catholic liturgical music for many years.
And for the record, we did use some of the music from Superstar (and later on Godspell) in Catholic services for most of the 70s. You won’t likely see it again anytime soon since the conservative elements in the church starting under JP-II have officially killed off the “Folk Mass” and have since severely restricted what music is currently being allowed for Roman Catholic services. Now, if it ain’t in the official songbook, it’s a no go.
(Minor niggling point: the musical numbers in Superstar don’t really meet the definition of a hymn. On the other hand, Godspell’s All Good Things and Day by Day do.)
OCP is proud of their copyrights, and will enforce the copyrights using the legal system. It is my understanding other publishers will do the same thing. This subject is not new to TB, as there are many threads about the heavyhandedness of the holders of copyright music.Agreed. The Music Ministers I play for/with are connected with Oregon Catholic Press, whose composers have commented that the “rules” governing Catholic liturgical music have tightened quite a bit. Regarding your niggle - that why I put hymn in quotes. It was meant as a light-hearted High Church, parochial sorta thing.
There are many choir groups that play only liturgical music whose copyrights have expired. There are many websites to help identify the music.
I can't tell you if music to JCSS is liturgical, and in many ways it is not important. I suspect the copyrights are in place for the music, and I wouldn't want to be a position to tell someone in charge, that their church group owes somebody some money because licenses to play were not bought. I guess I will have to write Michael Olivis, "The Law of Rock and Roll" regarding this matter.
It is not my intention to upset anyone regarding TB's rules regarding the discussion of religion, nor do I believe it was the intent of the OP. If I did, I apologize. I hope this post is relevant to discussion of the rock music found in JCSS.
There are a few that are considered de facto. All of them pretty much have the same songs.
As far as restrictions go, here’s a capsule summary. The actual documents covering it (there are several) can get a little dense. The summation below from Catholic Answers hits the main high points. I took the liberty of highlighting the more eye-opening points.
Considering Cardinal Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict, denounced pop music as banal and rock music as being “in opposition to Christian worship” I think it’s easy to get a sense of the prevailing mood in the church regarding music. Which is to say the rule of thumb is: “Older is better, and oldest is best.”
I’ve recently seen #5 above in action. I was asked if I could play bass for a Christmas service year before last. I said sure, will I be plugging directly into a PA or should I bring an amp? The person looked concerned and wanted to know if I had one of those “big basses.” I told them I no longer owned or had access to an upright. The request that I play was then immediately withdrawn. The pastor apparently wouldn’t allow “electric guitars” or amps in the church. I asked why and was told the pastor maintained the way he saw it, it was against “The Rules.”
Oh well. Who knew?
Of course we do! But real honest-to-goodness Catholic hymns! Not these JCSS-type “folk songs.”
(Extra emojis applied to emphasize my intent to engage in light-hearted banter!)@40Hz, your comments are well taken. The discussion regarding Catholic music, while relevant, probably should take place under a new thread. I believe it is an important discussion, where bassists can be educated on a subject where there are a lot restrictions. So I am not going to post my original reply to your post 52.
I don't want the moderators to lock this thread, on what some might think are tangents.
I am going to PM my response
I don't want the moderators to lock this thread, on what some might think are tangents.
I am going to PM my response
I half read your post, and was ready to quote an OCP publication regarding hymns, songs and psalms.Of course we do! But real honest-to-goodness Catholic hymns! Not these JCSS-type “folk songs.”
Us good Catholics will partake of hymms, that were not originally written for Catholic service. For those wondering just a few,
Lord of the Dance; Shaker hymn
Were you there?; spiritual
Away in the Manager; Lutheran,
Amazing Grace; Church of England?
possibly Silent Night
10,000 reasons;
Maybe we need a new thread, "Acquired worship music and its sources"
@gregbackstrom, would you like to start it, I will post more. I hope the moderators would find such a thread relevant, as we would be discussing the history of the music, and not its religiosity. See post 54, for similar reasoning.
I’ll consider this — it sounds intriguing. Regarding Catholic assimilation of other’s music, we’ve been doing that for 2,000 years (+/-). Same goes for land, precious metals, artwork, monetary instruments, etc.
I'm just curious if the Broadway bass book comes close to the original recording (1970 version with Ian Gillan) because some of the lines on that album are insane! FWIW, I'll be covering bass and tuba for a local production of "Annie" later this month and the bass book is pretty lame in comparison.
Not terribly close, if you're looking for a transcription of Alan Spenner's part on the album. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are lots of written parts but a lot of it is basically chord symbols. Most of "Heaven On Their Minds", "What's The Buzz", large parts of "Superstar", and lots of other portions are left to the player to determine. In general, if it's a unison part, it's written (along with some notable stuff like the bass melody in "Superstar"), and if it's got a really solid groove, it's almost always improvised. As I remember, "King Herod's Song" is completely written (I did that on tuba. Represent.).
I gotta agree with you on "Annie" - I did that back in 1983, and it's one of the more non-challenging shows I've done.
Edit - if you're interested in a transcription of Alan Spenner's performance, you can find it here: Transcription Archive
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