How might I play two basses through the same cabinet?

#122
agedhorse said:
Not very well.
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Can you please define "not very well" a little, Andy? Because we all know that there can be big differences and tiny differences between the "Gotta do it right" solutions and "Eh, close enough" solutions, and since I use tube amps that are said to have less damping factor but have contained flub in certain cabs that go way too low for my liking with high passing, I actually find myself a bit interested in this.
 
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#123
The HPF is not addressing the actual cause, the loss of control mechanism that's responsible for the flub (which is often at the system resonance or twice the system resonance).

It may make a difference, it may even help by cleaning up low frequency mud, but it's not the solution I would recommend without trying first.
 
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#124
agedhorse said:
The HPF is not addressing the actual cause, the loss of control mechanism that's responsible for the flub (which is often at the system resonance or twice the system resonance).

It may make a difference, it may even help by cleaning up low frequency mud, but it's not the solution I would recommend without trying first.
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i still dont understand. as long as you're getting rid of the poopie what difference does it make if you used a shovel or a tractor?
 
#125
shwashwa said:
i still dont understand. as long as you're getting rid of the poopie what difference does it make if you used a shovel or a tractor?
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Because it may not get rid of the problem and at the same time suck the low end out of the tone.

A better solution imo would be to try the amp with a speaker that has a critically damped alignment.
 
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#126
shwashwa said:
i still dont understand. as long as you're getting rid of the poopie what difference does it make if you used a shovel or a tractor?
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Geez, how much poopie do you have?

:D

agedhorse said:
Because it may not get rid of the problem and at the same time suck the low end out of the tone.

A better solution imo would be to try the amp with a speaker that has a critically damped alignment.
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Fortunately, I'm not looking for that kind of low end anyway. It's interesting to know this stuff, and always great to hear from those who design our stuff about it, but I kind of view this as something that's critical for you to know as an amp designer, but I could probably work out most of the time with my HPF if I ever ran across a situation where I was struggling with flub. I think, anyway.
 
#127
agedhorse said:
You are kind of mixing up levels and impedances. Typical instrument inputs are instrument level AND 1M impedance (they can vary from 500k to about 2M depending on design with 1M being the most common). The Shure transformer isn't going to get you any higher than 500k and in practice will be a bit lower.

Line level is both higher level and lower impedance, with anywhere between 10k and 50k being used, and 10k-22k being the most common.

Where the myths of the need for higher impedances came from was that back 20-50 years ago, there were quite a few amps that were much lower than the 1M that we take for granted today. One of the very first commercial products that I designed about 35 years ago, back when Don Underwood, Larry Fishman, Lee Barcus/John Berry and Carl Countryman, were also starting out, was acoustic instrument pickups. Back then, it wasn't uncommon to find an instrument input on a solid state amp of less than 100k, this was in fact a real issue. Nowadays, 1M is pretty common and for most pickups is the best balance between freq. response, noise and damping. I remember with players using Countryman DI's, modifying pickups by adding a 1.5 - 2M, 1/8W resistor inside the plug to bring down the impedance which reduced the low end flabbiness and increased definition. Even the Underwood, which is a smaller crystal, does best for most players round 2M. There were some pickups used in violas and violins that did better around 5M, but it was found that a small bridge mount mic typically sounded way more natural than any pickup on these instruments.

This has been my experience based on manufacturing both pickups AND the associated electronics. While I no longer manufacture pickups, I did (up until about 4 years ago) continue to design on-board electronics for acoustic instruments (including for some of the biggest companies in the world).
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All I lnow is the Ubass piezo pickups can't get squat out of being plugged direct into a mixing desk and get very little satisfaction going into an Ashdown preamp.
 
#128
JimmyM said:
Geez, how much poopie do you have?

:D


Fortunately, I'm not looking for that kind of low end anyway. It's interesting to know this stuff, and always great to hear from those who design our stuff about it, but I kind of view this as something that's critical for you to know as an amp designer, but I could probably work out most of the time with my HPF if I ever ran across a situation where I was struggling with flub. I think, anyway.
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If the flub is at 120Hz, a HPF that's -6dB at 120Hz (1/4-power) will be somewhere between -18 and -30dB at 60Hz (depending on slope). That would also be somewhere around -12 to -18dB at 90Hz (around the first harmonic of the lowest couple of notes on a 4 string). My perception is that there won't be much satisfaction down low.
 
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#129
agedhorse said:
If the flub is at 120Hz, a HPF that's -6dB at 120Hz (1/4-power) will be somewhere between -18 and -30dB at 60Hz (depending on slope). That would also be somewhere around -12 to -18dB at 90Hz (around the first harmonic of the lowest couple of notes on a 4 string). My perception is that there won't be much satisfaction down low.
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Geez, I would think that in the vast majority of cases, the flub would be way lower than that, no? Does a flub at 120 happen very often? If it does, though, then yeah, a HPF would be death to bass.
 
#131
It depends on the amp and the speaker tuning/alignment. This is why a HPF may not be a very good solution, though it might work ok on some amp/speaker combinations.

When developing the Subway cabinets, I very much considered how they might work under a variety of different amp conditions, they are more on the critically damped side of things out of respect to those players who choose to play a tube amp... after all, that is our legacy.
 
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#132
I use a Radial A/B/Y for two separate amps and cabs ( Subway 800 D +with one 4x10 and GK MB 800 with another 4x10)and a simple Radial A/B for a Jazz and Ric..I can use either bass through either amp set-up or either bass through both amps at once..lots of tone choices...I don't think two heads into just one cab will be safe no matter what pedals are used..
 
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