How to use modes

[Shenron]

First, I understand what modes are and generally how they are constructed (starting a C-scale, for example, then starting the scale from one ascending hole tone so you end up with different tonalities). What I don't understand is how and where to use them.

Do you play jazz? I think when talking about modes usually people have jazz and improvisation in mind, but modes are there in every song. The difference is perhaps that in jazz the players change modes within a song continuously, while a non-jazz song probably stays in the same mode throughout. Jazzists would not probably say you're using modes if you don't change them within a song. And yet, if you were a composer of songs, and purposefully changed mode  between songs, to exploit their different moods, then you would definitely be using modes.

I personally think there's an interesting middle ground that can help understand the compositional usefulness of modes, which would be to change modes across sections of a song. That is, not every chord, and not first fixing chords and then choosing modes that fit on those chords, but instead compose a section based on one mode, and choose chords that fit such mode. This is a lot easier from a mental point of view, as you are not overwhelmed by possible choices: once you are set on a mode in a section, you know exactly which 7 triads chords you can use, and all their possible extensions.

This approach won't teach you practical jazz improvisation. It will help only on learning the mood or meaning of a mode. It however also makes it clear that harmony is at band's level: it is the whole band which plays a chord AND a mode. Saying what chord the band is playing is not enough if each player then thinks they can play whatever mode they want as long as it's compatible with the chord, it has to be the same mode for all (well, nothing in music is against the law! but if they play different modes then there's a risk the piece will end up sounding all chromatic/dodecaphonic).

This simple consideration is to come back to the bassist's options with modes. If you are in a jazz context, maybe the players take turns in soloing. If you don't agree beforehand which mode the soloist will use over each chord, all others should stick to the notes of the chords for safety. If they start embellishing, they risk mismatching the soloist's mode. Otherwise, agree beforehand and you know how to match. As a bass player, there is a chance you won't solo or your solos will be shorter or less frequent. That's not a problem, the problem is the somewhat common tendency of keyboardists and guitarists to think they need to embellish during your solo, which they otherwise think it's too thin: for this reason I'd recommend to let them know your chosen modes in advance.

I've said this before on TB, but I think there's often a confusion between "modes as [something like] keys" and "modes as chord-scales."

This is what I had in mind, thanks for being the only one to point it out. As a fundamentally non-improviser, I could sense how everyone else in the thread was focused on "modes as chord-scales" for improvisation, but it's not the only way.

 

[Shenron]

As an addition to my previous post, for me an example on "how to use modes" in composition rather than improvisation could be:

- I am writing a new heavy metal song, I want it to be about the sadness of a war in a fantasy setting, eventually resolved by brave heroes
- I notice I like the sound of phrygian to represent something sad and sinister or mysterious, and lydian to represent boldness and bravery
- I decide to use phrygian in the verse and lydian in the chorus; I could use those which correspond to the same key for simplicity (like E phrygian and F lydian), or from different keys if I want to create a dramatic transition, the more different notes between the two, the more dramatic
- phrygian is a minor mode, what distinguishes it from the other minor modes of the natural scale is the minor 2nd, so in my verses I highlight the minor second to make sure to deliver the phrygian mood: I can do this for example by using chords which include the minor 2nd (of the mode's root*), or hit that minor 2nd often in the melody
- lydian is a major mode, what distinguishes it from the other major modes of the natural scale is the augmented 4nd, so in my verses I highlight the augmented fourth to make sure to deliver the lydian mood, by using chords or melodies which include that note

*such as, in the case of E phrygian, an F major chord (its root is the minor 2nd of E) or a Dmin (its minor 3rd is the minor 2nd of E) or a C11 (its 11th/4th is again the minor 2nd of E)... probably not too many major otherwise I might lose the general 'minor' feel of the whole section

 

[5StringBlues]

Piala

 

[Ritter667]

Practice the different chords, scales and modes to learn the fretboard and to recognize and get familiar with the character and sound of different intervals and sequences of them.
Then forget everything about all that again and play whatever melody pops up in your head that the music in question dictates you to play.

You are not playing conceptual music, I assume, so your musical choices should primarily be based on what you feel/hear, not on what you think, or it will, at best, end up sounding contrived and forced.

Nothing wrong with conceptual music though, but that is like a totally different thing all together.

 

[Felipe Matula]

My advice here is: don't mess with modes before you know how tonal harmony works. Get to know your chords on major keys, then on minor keys and why on minor you can have the major seventh or major sixth (harmonic and melodic minor), then you study secondary dominants and then modal interchange (although it's called modal, it's usually borrowing chords from minor key on a major key song, vice-versa). And THEN you may understand modes with a great foundation.
It's all in the chord sequence, if it's tonal or modal. When you playing dorian over Dm7, mixolydian on G7 and ionian on Cmaj7 you're not in a modal situation, even if you're shapeing the modes on the bass.

 

[Topkat13]

Every time I read an article about the modes nobody ever mentions the commode.

 

[Groove Master]

This is a music theory question that I hope can be addressed by this expert group (Facebook pages were.a wasteland of responses).

Modes. I'm generally accustomed to outlining chords in my bass liens but it is getting a little predictable. I'm thinking modes is my new step.
First, I understand what modes are and generally how they are constructed (starting a C-scale, for example, then starting the scale from one ascending hole tone so you end up with different tonalities). What I don't understand is how and where to use them.

For example. if I'm in the key of C, and the next chord is Dm, does that mean I would/could draw from the Dorian mode for my bassline? Do I switch to different modes even if the base chord is still a C? If the chord goes the the dominant 5th (G), am I now using the Mixolydian mode?

These are all diatonic, so I'm confused about how any of this would sound different?

Can anyone enlighten me or point me to a good resource center on the role of modes in bass lines?

Thanks. I'm ready to get out of theft bank on this!

Hi there,
Here are the specific notes that make each mode unique from the others:
C IONIAN: F
D DORIAN: B
E PHRYGIAN: F
F LYDIAN: B
G MIXOLYDIAN: F
A AEOLIAN: F
B LOCRIAN: F

It is so interesting to notice that they are all the semi-tones of the Major scale !

So if you use the Root C as your differents modes here are the notes that you should try to throw in your baselines aside the chord notes:

I CMaj7: F
II Cmin7: A
III Cmin7: Db
IV CMaj7: F#
V C7 :Bb
VI Cmin7: Ab
VII Cmin7(b5): Gb

I hope this will help understand there uses and sound ;-)

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I practiced the modes of the major and melodic minor scales in all keys, around the cycle of fourths (or however you want to call it) six days a week from July 2020 to July 2024.

I don't use the modes really, but when I see a chord on a chart, there's a good chance I know how to play it anywhere on the fretboard, so in that way, I use them all the time.

Also, because of how I practiced, I taught myself to play them with very little shifting, which helps.

Finally, it also taught me not only how, under my fingers in a given position all the diatonic chords are related, but also how they fit together as you travel up and down the neck.

I use them most as a teaching tool for myself, which supports technical proficiency, learning how to hear many songs, and learning to compose my own, too.

 

[antfarm]

If chord tones alone are getting boring
I think it's much more practical to explore styles vs modes

What do you mean by styles when you suggest to "explore styles vs modes"? Musical styles, i.e. genres?

 

[mambo4]

What do you mean by styles when you suggest to "explore styles vs modes"? Musical styles, i.e. genres?

Yes. Do a deep dive into Blues, or Jazz, or Country, or Klezmer or Bossa Nova or Modern prog metal, etc
Since modes are arguably omnipresent each one presents an example of how modes can be used.
But also each one presents an example of rhytmic ideas, chord progressions, song forms etc etc

Theory plus repertoire if you will

 

[Groove Doctor]

I think you are understanding the basics correctly, now you need to apply those basics. Eventually that will branch out into trying new things and allowing it to get more complicated.

…leads directly to this….

Sing it, play it on the bass, and you'll find the melody dictating your note selection vs. technical riffing. I was told you cannot play a proper bass line until you do this, as your job is to support the melody by weaving lines that are attentive to it, not just technically accurate notes from the theory point of view.
It may very well be the key to refreshing your approach and enjoyment of the bassist's role.
Hopefully, that will trigger some freshness to your lines.

Totally agree.



IME Some people see Modes as specific rules superimposed over another set of fundamental rules.

Other see learning Modes as simply one avenue to learn how to add colour or spice or tension etc to a song…. a way to learn to think differently, less ‘rules’ based and more ‘ear’ based.

The bit that helped me most was SINGING each mode on one key. It’ll teach you how to clearly hear the difference between a Maj 7 and Dom 7 in a scale, Maj 3 and Min 3 in a scale, etc.



Try playing AND simultaneously singing this routinely every day until it’s autopilot.

C Lydian
C Ionian
C Mixolydian
C Aeolian
C Dorian
C Phrygian
C Locrian

Then repeat for C# doing the list above, D, Eb, etc.

Once it’s internalised, sing it unaccompanied. Once that’s internalised, you’ll notice that you can hear more notes outside of the tonic scale in a song and be able to start incorporate them into your playing. It’ll just start coming out in your playing.

 

[Groove Doctor]

…leads directly to this….

Totally agree.



IME Some people see Modes as specific rules superimposed over another set of fundamental rules.

Other see learning Modes as simply one avenue to learn how to add colour or spice or tension etc to a song…. a way to learn to think differently, less ‘rules’ based and more ‘ear’ based.

The bit that helped me most was SINGING each mode on one key. It’ll teach you how to clearly hear the difference between a Maj 7 and Dom 7 in a scale, Maj 3 and Min 3 in a scale, etc.



Try playing AND simultaneously singing this routinely every day until it’s autopilot.

C Lydian
C Ionian
C Mixolydian
C Aeolian
C Dorian
C Phrygian
C Locrian

Then repeat for C# doing the list above, D, Eb, etc.

Once it’s internalised, sing it unaccompanied. Once that’s internalised, you’ll notice that you can hear more notes outside of the tonic scale in a song and be able to start incorporate them into your playing. It’ll just start coming out in your playing.

Edit :
C Lydian
C Ionian
C Mixolydian
C Dorian *
C Aeolian *
C Phrygian
C Locrian

* swapped.
I do them in this order (original list incorrect order).

 

[retslock]

I got into modes a while back but since I don't play solos I didn't stay with them for very long. I prefer to think in terms of counter melodies to the song melody. What I did find interesting was using triads based on modal steps. There's some great sounding ideas that lurk there.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's take an easy pop track with a simple chord progression and try to "apply" those modes.

Your Lovin' (feat. She Adores) · Ziggy Funk

We have a simple chord progression - a four-chord loop:

Fmin - Bbmin - Cmin - Gmin

Let's say, a guitar player needs to improvise over those chords.
How would you explain to the guitar player what notes, scales, or modes to play with each chord and why?

Also, could a bass player play the note D with F min?
("Maybe, it's F Dorian?)
How does the note D fits with the Gmin chord (D is in the chord, but we also have Bbmin.)

 

[Groove Master]

Let's take an easy pop track with a simple chord progression and try to "apply" those modes.

Your Lovin' (feat. She Adores) · Ziggy Funk

We have a simple chord progression - a four-chord loop:

Fmin - Bbmin - Cmin - Gmin

Let's say, a guitar player needs to improvise over those chords.
How would you explain to the guitar player what notes, scales, or modes to play with each chord and why?

Also, could a bass player play the note D with F min?
("Maybe, it's F Dorian?)
How does the note D fits with the Gmin chord (D is in the chord, but we also have Bbmin.)

There is no right or wrong...kind of.
But if I would solo or play a bassline over that chord progression, I would use as much common tones between them.
So I would probably start with an Aelian mode to Dorian than I could go Phrygian or Aeolian to Aeolian.
But if the chords would move in a parallel motion, then the use of the same mode would fit the bill.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

IMHO, how to use modes depends on how you use them, and how you look at the whole concept

First of all, we all play in modes whether we're aware or not. The key of C is Ionian, Cm is Aeolian, etc. thus the whole piece has a mode. A lot of Turkish music use the Phrygian mode for instance. So modes are scales really.

But, it is often that the melody alters a note or two in the key, and change it's mode to make things darker, brighter or for whatever artistic reason. For instance if the key is Cm (C Aeolian), the melody can raise the 6th note a half step up and play in C Dorian mode instead. Or if the key is C (C Ionian), one can lower the 7th note a half step down and make it C Mixolydian, something we bass players do. But if you play a G Mixolydian in the key of C (Ionian), it won't sound as anything happened because you will be using the same exact notes of the key (C Ionian). But, you will still be playing a mode which is C Ionian as I wrote in the previous paragraph.

This is why the concept of "modes" can get confusing.