I need help understanding modes

frostyman1962

frostyman1962

Feb 16, 2015
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#1
I'm a nube trying to learn some music theory online. I'm really struggling mentally but I'm in it for the long hall.
In the Dorian mode 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 what does the b3 and b7 actually mean? I know b3 is an F and b7 is a C, however I don't understand the designation (b)?
I'm sure this is basic knowledge so I apologize for asking a silly question.
Thanks for the help!
 
#2
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#4
congrats in deciding to teach yourself. in the beginning modes will baffle you but those who slowly chip away at it will be surprised not long after that slab is actually mostly made of chalk.

notes in all modes are assigned the same numbers so it's critical you memorize which notes are flat or sharp in each mode.

the 3rd note (or degree) will indicate whether the mode is major or minor.

a major mode with a flat 7th (mixolydian) played over dominant chords (drop or flatten the third and you have dorian).

lydian is just ionian with a sharp 4th; aeolian is pure minor...

we're almost done but i'm sure you could figure out for yourself the rest.
 
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#5
The modes share the key signature of their related major scale.
tinyd said:
The 'b' is just an approximation of the flat symbol. So b3 means that the third degree of the scale is flattened (compared to the third degree of the major scale).
Click to expand...
This is it pretty well. Starting with the major scale pattern as the foundation of the modes you can think of the intervals in each of the modes in terms of major or minor intervals. A major third is 2 whole tones (4 frets) - it is the distance from the root to rhe thirdnote in the major scale. A minor third is 2 and a half tones (hence the flat third b3 nomenclature) - like the distance from the first to the third note in the minor scale.
 
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#6
frostyman1962 said:
I'm a nube trying to learn some music theory online. I'm really struggling mentally but I'm in it for the long hall.
In the Dorian mode 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 what does the b3 and b7 actually mean? I know b3 is an F and b7 is a C, however I don't understand the designation (b)?
I'm sure this is basic knowledge so I apologize for asking a silly question.
Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...

Hi frostyman!

First you need to understand, and I mean really understand, the Major Scale.

There are 12 different major scales (one for each note of the chromatic scale or "musical alphabet") and they all have exactly the same construction of whole steps (W) and half steps (H): W-W-H-W-W-W-H. The formula for the major scale is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and all other scales are defined in relation to the major scale.

If you don't know your 12 major scales (not just from the root to the octave, but over the entire range of the bass) or what I just said about whole step and half step patterns doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn (I mean really learn) the major scale before you even worry about modes. :)

Next up you should learn the 12 minor scales. The pattern of whole and half steps is: W-H-W-W-H-W-W and the formula is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. The b symbol means "flat" and indicates that the note in question is 1 half step lower compared to the major scale. In other words, the minor scale's 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are 1 half step lowered compared to the corresponding major scale. Example: C Major = C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, C Minor = C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C.

If that doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn your 12 major scales and 12 minor scales before you even worry about modes. These 24 scales (12 major scales, 12 minor scales) are the foundation of Western music; essential; must-learn.

Assuming you are ready to take the plunge into modes, you can learn them all in a day, and then move on to more important things. Here is everything you need to know about modes: There are two ways of thinking about modes: parallel thinking and relative thinking.

Parallel thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale starting on the same note. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and D Major (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#). Parallel thinking makes it easy to see that only two notes are different, F vs. F# and C vs. C#. F is a half step lower than F#, and C is a half step lower than C#, so that is why we say the formula for Dorian is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

Relative thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale spelled with the same notes. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B). They have the same notes, but start on a different note, meaning they are relative to each other. This is why people say "D Dorian is a mode of C Major."

I hope that made some sense? That's really all there is to understanding modes. The most important thing is this: As with all music theory concepts, modes are meaningless abstract nonsense until you apply them to actual music! So, turn off the computer, put on a playlist of your favorite music, and for each of your favorite songs, ask yourself: is this song in a major key, is it in a minor key, or is it modal? The value of learning modes is directly proportional to how prevalent they are in your favorite genres of music. :)

A final thought: Very important to realize that, just because a melody or bass line starts on a note other than the root of the major scale, does not mean the piece is necessarily modal. For example, if you are singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in the key of C, it starts on the note E. Does this mean "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is in E Phrygian? No! Of course not! Or if you are singing "The Star Spangled Banner" in the key of C, it starts on the note G. Does this mean "The Star Spangled Banner" is in G Mixolydian? No! Of course not! The concept of "modes" is completely unnecessary to understanding the vast majority of popular songs.
 
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#7
frostyman1962 said:
I'm a nube trying to learn some music theory online. I'm really struggling mentally but I'm in it for the long hall.
In the Dorian mode 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 what does the b3 and b7 actually mean? I know b3 is an F and b7 is a C, however I don't understand the designation (b)?
I'm sure this is basic knowledge so I apologize for asking a silly question.
Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
Not a silly question ... but you are jumping way ahead of yourself here. Mushroo is giving you some good advice. Like any complex thing, music theory builds upon a set of principles, which form the foundation for further study. Build the foundation before you try to build the house. Personally, I think anyone who is serious about delving into theory ought to have a keyboard ... even a cheap kiddy toy would do. A keyboard lays things out visually, and linearly, which makes it easier to imagine intervals. Don't give up, and at some point you'll realize that you know what you thought you didn't, because you didn't know what to call it.
 
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#8
And there's the question of 'Why' you feel you need to learn modes. If you're looking for a silver bullet, you'll like come up empty handed.
That said, practicing the modes is an excellent way to avoid the pit fall of patterns, and to open your ear to different interval relationships. Ultimately you're better off spending your time understanding chords and progressions and how to use them to create lines.
 
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#9
Mushroo said:
Hi frostyman!

First you need to understand, and I mean really understand, the Major Scale.

There are 12 different major scales (one for each note of the chromatic scale or "musical alphabet") and they all have exactly the same construction of whole steps (W) and half steps (H): W-W-H-W-W-W-H. The formula for the major scale is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and all other scales are defined in relation to the major scale.

If you don't know your 12 major scales (not just from the root to the octave, but over the entire range of the bass) or what I just said about whole step and half step patterns doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn (I mean really learn) the major scale before you even worry about modes. :)

Next up you should learn the 12 minor scales. The pattern of whole and half steps is: W-H-W-W-H-W-W and the formula is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. The b symbol means "flat" and indicates that the note in question is 1 half step lower compared to the major scale. In other words, the minor scale's 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are 1 half step lowered compared to the corresponding major scale. Example: C Major = C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, C Minor = C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C.

If that doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn your 12 major scales and 12 minor scales before you even worry about modes. These 24 scales (12 major scales, 12 minor scales) are the foundation of Western music; essential; must-learn.

Assuming you are ready to take the plunge into modes, you can learn them all in a day, and then move on to more important things. Here is everything you need to know about modes: There are two ways of thinking about modes: parallel thinking and relative thinking.

Parallel thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale starting on the same note. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and D Major (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#). Parallel thinking makes it easy to see that only two notes are different, F vs. F# and C vs. C#. F is a half step lower than F#, and C is a half step lower than C#, so that is why we say the formula for Dorian is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

Relative thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale spelled with the same notes. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B). They have the same notes, but start on a different note, meaning they are relative to each other. This is why people say "D Dorian is a mode of C Major."

I hope that made some sense? That's really all there is to understanding modes. The most important thing is this: As with all music theory concepts, modes are meaningless abstract nonsense until you apply them to actual music! So, turn off the computer, put on a playlist of your favorite music, and for each of your favorite songs, ask yourself: is this song in a major key, is it in a minor key, or is it modal? The value of learning modes is directly proportional to how prevalent they are in your favorite genres of music. :)

A final thought: Very important to realize that, just because a melody or bass line starts on a note other than the root of the major scale, does not mean the piece is necessarily modal. For example, if you are singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in the key of C, it starts on the note E. Does this mean "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is in E Phrygian? No! Of course not! Or if you are singing "The Star Spangled Banner" in the key of C, it starts on the note G. Does this mean "The Star Spangled Banner" is in G Mixolydian? No! Of course not! The concept of "modes" is completely unnecessary to understanding the vast majority of popular songs.
Click to expand...

+1 great info for the OP
 
#10
WOW! Ask and you shall receive. This is great information from all. Thank you Mushroo for opening the flood gates of understanding. RustyAxe, I have a keyboard. I think I understand the significance of using it to see how chords are built, it's a much easier picture to see because it's right there in front of me.

I must confess I think I am getting the cart in front of the Horse, I don't know all 12 Major and minor scales. I'll take the advice given and do the necessary work.

I've played by ear the entire time I've played Bass and I've hit the wall and haven't progressed. So know I'm on a journey to become a better Bassist.

Thank you gentlemen for your help!
 
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#12
Great advice to know the major (and relative minor aka aeolian) scales really really well. Unless you’re playing modal Jazz most songs are from the major or minor key.

I like to think within the key and recognize when a chord/scale is outside of that. For example if you have a straight up III-VI-II-V-I progression you could think Phrygian-aeolian-Dorian-mixolidian-Ionian or you could recognize they are all built on their degree of the Ionian and just think within the key.

So for example if you have instead the common III substitution of a major or dominant 7 chord you recognize there are notes outside the key. Especially playing country and classic rock that’s as deep as I ever need to go.
 
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#13
A good introduction to modes is to look at C Major and A Minor. They both use the same notes but have a different starting point, and that shifting of the interval pattern is what makes them sound different. This is the idea behind modes, as C Major is actually the Ionian mode and A Minor is the Aeolian mode.

Starting from the other 5 notes in the C Major scale, D-to-D, E-to-E, etc. gets the other 5 modes. You can also get them by keeping the same starting point and shifting the pattern of intervals, like going from C Major to C Minor.
 
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#14
Make sure you know major and minor scales all over the neck before you worry about mode. A simple way of looking at it, you buy a C major harmonica and use it over c f and g. That the straight harp, that's country. If you use it over G7 C7 and D7 that's mixolydian or cross harp, that's the blues
 
#15
dxb said:
A good introduction to modes is to look at C Major and A Minor. They both use the same notes but have a different starting point, and that shifting of the interval pattern is what makes them sound different. This is the idea behind modes, as C Major is actually the Ionian mode and A Minor is the Aeolian mode.

Starting from the other 5 notes in the C Major scale, D-to-D, E-to-E, etc. gets the other 5 modes. You can also get them by keeping the same starting point and shifting the pattern of intervals, like going from C Major to C Minor.
Click to expand...
Best answer yet because it has the best chance of making sense to the person asking what the "b" symbol means.
Also OP, it's not a dumb question at all.
 
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#16
frostyman1962 said:
I'm a nube trying to learn some music theory online. I'm really struggling mentally but I'm in it for the long hall. In the Dorian mode 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7 what does the b3 and b7 actually mean?
Click to expand...
The b3 is a flatted 3rd scale degree and the b7 is a flatted 7th scale degree of what ever key/scale you are playing Dorian over. That may not answer all your question, so I'm going to give you a dirt simple run down on Modes. Copy this and file it away. You won't be needing if for several years. But by the time you finish reading this the b3 and b7 should not be a problem any longer. If it's minor it is going to have a b3 in it's makeup. If it is minor and has a 7 it'll probably have the b7, So the b3 and b7 kinda go with minor stuff. Dorian is a minor mode - it all fits together, to understand all this we just need to know a few facts.

You'll need this to understand what is being said below.

Major scale box showing scale degree numbers
and the root note on the 4th string.
........Index...Middle..Ring...Little
G~~|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D~~|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A~~|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E~~|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
Want to play the Dorian mode? Lets do it in C.
Find the C at the 4th string 8th fret. Put the box's
R over that C and play Dorian's spelling. That
spelling is R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. Have fun.​

Modes are normally the melody notes that are played over a modal chord vamp. Modes are moods of the scale. Each mood has a feel or sound. If you want that sound play that mode. Modes are used by the solo instruments much more than by the rhythm section instruments.

There are two ways to look at modes. The relative way where the notes stay the same and the key changes. Then the parallel way where the key stays the same and the notes change. I find parallel the easiest to understand and this is what I've listed below. Relative and parallel get you to the same place, but, take different roads getting there. Most of the time Internet posts do not bother telling you which way they are using, so it can get confusing. The following is parallel.

Ionian R-2-3-4-5-6-7 is said to have a happy up beat sound. So does the major scale. If you are going modal, i.e. using a two chord vamp use Ionian. If you are using a chord progression that resolves back to the tonic chord then use the major scale. The notes are the same. A vamp does not resolve - thus letting the modal sound develop, where a chord progression will resolve to the tonal center tonic chord. Your vamp will have problems cutting through the tonal center resolution to the tonic chord. IMO your modal efforts are wasted. I think you will find that Ionian is seldom used as a mode.

Lydian R-2-3-#4-5-6-7 is said to have a day dreamy sound. I do not hear that, in fact to my ear Lydian is so much like Ionian I do not use Lydian. But I have been known to use Lydian dominant R-2-3-#4-5-6-b7. Adding the b7 does move it away from Ionian.

OP, a b7 is a 7 one fret back toward the nut. Or put another way a b7 is a flatted 7. That #4 in Lydian is one more fret toward the bridge. The # sign means it is sharped.

Mixolydian R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 is said to have a Latin sound. It's used over dominant seven Blues progressions because of it's b7. Lydian dominant is kinda half way between Lydian and Mixolydian.

That takes care of the major modes. The minor modes are.

Aeolian R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 is said to have a sad sound. I do not hear sad, I hear minor. Aeolian is the same as the natural minor scale. If played modal use Aeolian and a vamp. If played tonal use the natural minor scale and a chord progression. I very seldom ever use Aeolian as a mode. Dorian is my minor choice...

Dorian R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 is said to have an attractive minor sound. Yes, if I'm going minor Dorian would be my choice.

Phrygian R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 is said to have a Middle Eastern sound and that is what I hear.

Locrian R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7 is said to have a dark and tense sound and that is what I hear. The modal vamp for Locrian is best served IMO with just a one chord vamp droning the m7b5 chord.

Because you asked - and we always go off on modes. File this away and do yourself a favor; stay away from modes right now, you will not be using them any time in the near future. But I hope this puts some light on b3 and b7.

What you can do right now is using the box run your major scales - R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8. F at the 4th string 1st fret, G at the 3rd fret, A at the 5th fret, B at the 7th, C at the 8th, D at the 10th and E at the 12. When you finish that run your natural minor scales - R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqpUCD2yrn_vzOSwJcZJssXJwl3HEmGcqs_kAE-RwrqoHqWUMEiw.png


Why run the scales? They get your fingers moving over the fret board and the major scale is the foundation everything is based upon. Good place to start your journey.

Happy trails.
 
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#17
#18
Mushroo said:
Hi frostyman!

First you need to understand, and I mean really understand, the Major Scale.
Click to expand...

You could have stopped right here, and the thread would be over. Its perfect advice.

Until someone completely masters the major scale and chord tones, modes are never going to be properly utilized.

I strongly believe in mastering the major scale and chord tones before worrying about modes at all.
 
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#19
Two-Spirit said:
Make sure you know major and minor scales all over the neck before you worry about mode. A simple way of looking at it, you buy a C major harmonica and use it over c f and g. That the straight harp, that's country. If you use it over G7 C7 and D7 that's mixolydian or cross harp, that's the blues
Click to expand...
Improvising solos is a giant time sink for guitarists. I'm not saying don't learn modes, I'm saying know major minor scales and normal basslines first.
 
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