I need help understanding modes

#21
Another way to think about different scales and modes is: Where are the half steps?

If you've ever played piano, then you've probably noticed there's no black key in between B and C or between E and F. There's a whole step interval (two half steps) from C to D, and D to E, F to G, G to A, and A to B. This is represented by the black keys (sharps and flats) in between the white keys. But from E to F and B to C, there is only a half step, and therefore no black key.

If you remember back to the "major scale formula" I mentioned above, W-W-H-W-W-W-H, and visualize a C major scale on the piano (all the white keys) it's easy to visualize the half steps vs. whole steps based on whether or not there is a black key.

The half steps in a scale are, in many ways, the most important notes that give a scale its character. Thousands of famous major-scale melodies make use of the half step from 7 to 8 or from 3 to 4. And the half steps aren't just important melodically, but also harmonically. For example, take the iconic V-I progression: G7 - C. The B in the G7 chord moves up a half step to C, and the F in the G7 chord moves down a half step to E.

Different scales and modes have different characters in part because the half steps appear in different places. Every mode of the major scale contains exactly two half steps (just like the parent major scale) but they are rearranged. In the Dorian mode, the half steps are from 2 to b3 and 6 to b7. In Phrygian mode, the half steps are from 1 to b2 and 5 to b6. And so on. If you want to bring out the special character of each mode, be sure to emphasize these half steps! :)
 
#22
this might help you visualize - thanks to the MalcolmAmos for the original fretboard diagram.
 

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#23
Mushroo said:
Hi frostyman!

First you need to understand, and I mean really understand, the Major Scale.

There are 12 different major scales (one for each note of the chromatic scale or "musical alphabet") and they all have exactly the same construction of whole steps (W) and half steps (H): W-W-H-W-W-W-H. The formula for the major scale is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and all other scales are defined in relation to the major scale.

If you don't know your 12 major scales (not just from the root to the octave, but over the entire range of the bass) or what I just said about whole step and half step patterns doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn (I mean really learn) the major scale before you even worry about modes. :)

Next up you should learn the 12 minor scales. The pattern of whole and half steps is: W-H-W-W-H-W-W and the formula is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. The b symbol means "flat" and indicates that the note in question is 1 half step lower compared to the major scale. In other words, the minor scale's 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are 1 half step lowered compared to the corresponding major scale. Example: C Major = C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, C Minor = C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C.

If that doesn't make any sense, then STOP and learn your 12 major scales and 12 minor scales before you even worry about modes. These 24 scales (12 major scales, 12 minor scales) are the foundation of Western music; essential; must-learn.

Assuming you are ready to take the plunge into modes, you can learn them all in a day, and then move on to more important things. Here is everything you need to know about modes: There are two ways of thinking about modes: parallel thinking and relative thinking.

Parallel thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale starting on the same note. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and D Major (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#). Parallel thinking makes it easy to see that only two notes are different, F vs. F# and C vs. C#. F is a half step lower than F#, and C is a half step lower than C#, so that is why we say the formula for Dorian is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7.

Relative thinking means you are comparing a mode to the major scale spelled with the same notes. For example, compare D Dorian (D-E-F-G-A-B-C) and C Major (C-D-E-F-G-A-B). They have the same notes, but start on a different note, meaning they are relative to each other. This is why people say "D Dorian is a mode of C Major."

I hope that made some sense? That's really all there is to understanding modes. The most important thing is this: As with all music theory concepts, modes are meaningless abstract nonsense until you apply them to actual music! So, turn off the computer, put on a playlist of your favorite music, and for each of your favorite songs, ask yourself: is this song in a major key, is it in a minor key, or is it modal? The value of learning modes is directly proportional to how prevalent they are in your favorite genres of music. :)

A final thought: Very important to realize that, just because a melody or bass line starts on a note other than the root of the major scale, does not mean the piece is necessarily modal. For example, if you are singing "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in the key of C, it starts on the note E. Does this mean "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is in E Phrygian? No! Of course not! Or if you are singing "The Star Spangled Banner" in the key of C, it starts on the note G. Does this mean "The Star Spangled Banner" is in G Mixolydian? No! Of course not! The concept of "modes" is completely unnecessary to understanding the vast majority of popular songs.
Click to expand...

This, this, and this... Not because I did, but because I wish I did.
 
#24
csc2048b said:
this might help you visualize - thanks to the MalcolmAmos for the original fretboard diagram.
Click to expand...

Graphically I think this is very misleading... for example, looking at E Phrygian, why is open A a different color than A at the 5th fret of the E string? Aren't they the same pitch? Wouldn't it be more accurate to color in all the dots? What if I am playing "Happy Birthday" in C Major (Ionian); am I "allowed" to start on low G at the 3rd fret? ;)
 
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#25
Mushroo said:
Graphically I think this is very misleading... for example, looking at E Phrygian, why is open A a different color than A at the 5th fret of the E string? Aren't they the same pitch? Wouldn't it be more accurate to color in all the dots? What if I am playing "Happy Birthdayy" in C Major (Ionian); am I "allowed" to start on low G at the 3rd fret? ;)
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if you say so, then i must be punished for wanting to mislead anyone.

i'm sorry i'm not as good as you or the diagrams you posted...

it's cleary stated as 3 notes per string boxes.
 
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#26
@frostyman1962
I hope your initial question was answered and if I may....

I recently learned some things while trying to teach myself music theory..or I should say something clicked for me. Let's take the C major scale.The notes of the Cmajor scale are below and like any scale each note is given a number from 1-8 In terms of writing out scales there is usually a numeric and have a 'b' for flat notes and '#' for sharp notes. When talking about chord tones we often see these same numbers but written as roman numerals (the final C-8-VIII is the octave).

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8
I-II-III-IV-V-VI-VII-VIII

craigie posted(I've edited it ever so slightly)
"I like to think within the key and recognize when a chord/scale is outside of that. For example if you have a straight up II-V-I progression you could think Dorian-Mixolydian-Ionian..."

If you apply the roman numeral to the modes, in this case for the C major scale we get: (I've not put the II-V-I in order but I've highlighted them)
  • I -Ionian/Major Scale: C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
  • II - Dorian: D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D
  • III - Phrygian: E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E
  • IV - Lydian: F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F
  • V - Mixolydian: G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G
  • VI - Aeolian/Natural minor scale: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A

It was while playing Rose Garden by Lynn Anderson and was working out the bass and it struck me that the tune was a II-V-I. The (II) chord corresponding to a Dorian scale run, the (I) chord a Ionian scale run and the (V) chord a mixolydian scale run. I realised that the scale tones (1-8) were the same as the modes (I-VIII) so if I knew the scale 'degree' or what interval I was playing 1 thru 8 (or I thru VIII) then irrespective of the key or if I knew the song or not a II-V-I would always be Dorian,Ionian and Mixolydian. This suddenly made a lot of sense and gave me a little confidence boost. I knida knew when to play a minor etc. by the sound but I now feel like I have a better understanding and feel more capable of depping or figuring things out faster thanks to my little theoretical epiphany. It makes complete sense now but it was never explained to me like that. I hope its not too confusing and can help you grasp a bit more understanding in your theory quest! It can get much more complicated but this along wth the scales should be a good start!

Here's where the roman numerals come in but its maybe a bit much to learn along with all those major and minor scales ;)

Tonic (I) — the first note of a scale that the scale is based upon, sometimes called the root.
Super tonic (II) — second scale degree, one step above the tonic.
Mediant (III) — third scale degree with a position halfway between the tonic and the dominant.
Subdominant (IV) — fourth scale degree, a fifth below the tonic and next to the dominant.
Dominant (V) — fifth scale degree
Submediant (VI) — sixth scale degree and sometimes called supermediant.
Subtonic (VII) — seventh scale degree which is also referred to as leading tone because it musically "leads" back to the tonic.
 
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#27
Mushroo said:
As with all music theory concepts, modes are meaningless abstract nonsense until you apply them to actual music!
Click to expand...

Oh, yes!

Mrmatt1972 said:
You should probably start a thread about how you wish people would use the search function before asking a question, I'm sure that's never been done before. ;-)
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A cold front from Canada arrived in Houston. It's cold outside for early bird shoppers with temps bottoming out in the upper 30s and low 40s. drool
 
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#28
Whousedtoplay said:
I've searched our TB forums for "Dorian Mode" and got 2,300 results.
Search Results | TalkBass.com
Here is the most recent.
This Dorian scale


Next, I've searched for "Modes" and got 93,000 results.
Search Results | TalkBass.com
Click to expand...

I think the point being made is that most questions have been asked and answered many times. It seems odd to me that the number of respondents is very small - it's not often that the OP's come back later, brimming over with their new-found knowledge, to contribute answers to similar questions...

Mushroo said:
Graphically I think this is very misleading... for example, looking at E Phrygian, why is open A a different color than A at the 5th fret of the E string? Aren't they the same pitch? Wouldn't it be more accurate to color in all the dots? What if I am playing "Happy Birthday" in C Major (Ionian); am I "allowed" to start on low G at the 3rd fret? ;)
Click to expand...

Right, and a perennial problem with boxes. :)
 
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#29
SteveCS said:
I think the point being made is that most questions have been asked and answered many times. It seems odd to me that the number of respondents is very small - it's not often that the OP's come back later, brimming over with their new-found knowledge, to contribute answers to similar questions...



Right, and a perennial problem with boxes. :)
Click to expand...
My issue with Modes is
A. Too much/way too much superficial/beginner level information about Modes,
B. Not enough good quality learning tutorials on Modes without going back to the Medieval times,
C. And almost no help on
a) how to apply those Modes for the bass players, or
b) why a bass player should focus on Modes when scales/chords offer enough information about a song.
 
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#30
Whousedtoplay said:
My issue with Modes is
A. Too much/way too much superficial/beginner level information about Modes,
B. Not enough good quality learning tutorials on Modes without going back to the Medieval times,
C. And almost no help on
a) how to apply those Modes for the bass players, or
b) why a bass player should focus on Modes when scales/chords offer enough information about a song.
Click to expand...

Good summary, with which I have to agree. In the early days modes were used to evoke certain moods by their inherent tensions and resolutions through melody and certain well- defined melodic themes, often consisting of short 3-note transposable and reuseable sequences - these days we might call these 'riffs'. Since then, these duties have largely been overtaken by harmony, with the characteristic melodic themes being lost to free-form or improvised 'tunes'. This is why I no longer get hung up on modes - modern mode use revolves more around navigating chord changes rather than playing 'in the mode', and for that, knowledge of the Major and Minor keys is sufficient (more often than not). Most modern music doesn't stay on a single chord long enough to 'establish' the mode through melody.
YMMV.
 
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#31
Whousedtoplay said: ↑
My issue with Modes is
A. Too much/way too much superficial/beginner level information about Modes,
B. Not enough good quality learning tutorials on Modes without going back to the Medieval times,
C. And almost no help on
a) how to apply those Modes for the bass players, or
b) why a bass player should focus on Modes when scales/chords offer enough information about a song.

Yup I'd agree with this and never really understood what the modes meant to me as a bass player. The stuff I wrote earlier has helped me understand some stuff from a theoretical standpoint but again if you can hear the diffeence from Maj or Min you'll be half way there.

If I was asked to play a II-IV-I-V in G by looking at the notes of the scale and the corresponding mode I'm guesing off the top of my head I could play II (A)-Dorian, IV (C) -Lydian, I (G)-Ionian, V(D)-Mixolydian. I've just replaced the Roman numeral with corresponding note as the root of each of the modes II-A, IV-C, I-G, V-D. To me that make a lot of sense! As Steve CS has said we often don't get long enough on a chord to really develop the modal flavour but this might be useful to someone. If I've made a glaring error to those with more theororetical knowledge please be gentle and I'd be happy to be pointed in the right direction :)
 
#32
My advice is, when you see a common tonal progression, like Dmin7-G7-CMaj7 (ii-V-I in C) don't fall into the intellectual trap of thinking "D Dorian mode, G Mixolydian mode, C Ionian mode." You don't need the concept of modes at all to play a tonal harmonic progression! Just think "ii-V-I in C" and you'll be all set. It's like learning to read English: the goal is to recognize the word "cat" instead of puzzling it out letter by letter, "C, A, T."
 
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#33
See that's the thing I kinda know what to play in these settings just from gigging and playing. I'm trying to superimpose some knowledge onto what I already do...with varying success. What is it they say a little bit of knowledge isa dangerous thing!

Cheers though that's a top tip :)
 
#34
Whousedtoplay said:
Oh, yes!



A cold front from Canada arrived in Houston. It's cold outside for early bird shoppers with temps bottoming out in the upper 30s and low 40s. drool
Click to expand...
Wow. 30
krispn said:
Whousedtoplay said: ↑
My issue with Modes is
A. Too much/way too much superficial/beginner level information about Modes,
B. Not enough good quality learning tutorials on Modes without going back to the Medieval times,
C. And almost no help on
a) how to apply those Modes for the bass players, or
b) why a bass player should focus on Modes when scales/chords offer enough information about a song.

Yup I'd agree with this and never really understood what the modes meant to me as a bass player. The stuff I wrote earlier has helped me understand some stuff from a theoretical standpoint but again if you can hear the diffeence from Maj or Min you'll be half way there.

If I was asked to play a II-IV-I-V in G by looking at the notes of the scale and the corresponding mode I'm guesing off the top of my head I could play II (A)-Dorian, IV (C) -Lydian, I (G)-Ionian, V(D)-Mixolydian. I've just replaced the Roman numeral with corresponding note as the root of each of the modes II-A, IV-C, I-G, V-D. To me that make a lot of sense! As Steve CS has said we often don't get long enough on a chord to really develop the modal flavour but this might be useful to someone. If I've made a glaring error to those with more theororetical knowledge please be gentle and I'd be happy to be pointed in the right direction :)
Click to expand...

This is what I was trying to point out and what mushroo says I’m the next post. You don’t need to think that way and it’s cumbersome. It’s just the same as “key of C”. That’s it, no outside notes, no more thought required.
 
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#35
I realize we’ve strayed off topic somewhat but the very complaint by others about no help in applying the modes (if we need to know them or not) kinda is how I came to my very rudimentary understanding. If someone was looking a more practical application of them then there must be better resources or a more simple explanation.
 
#36
Here is my very abstract explanation how I "see/imagine" Modes.

Let's say, one has a specific car - Toyota Corolla or Ford Ranger.
We designate Toyota Corolla as C major scale - no flats, no sharps.
Next.
I am standing in front on the driver’s side- let’s call it Ionian “vision”.
If I am standing in front of the car on the passenger’s side- it would be my Aeolian “vision”.
In short.
The car is the same but I see/aurally hear the specific notes/intervals - the car details - more pronounced than others.
Now, if I am standing behind the car - the same car - I see/hear different notes/intervals more pronounced when other notes are (more) obscure - different Modes.

To summarize my strange Mode perception.
The car is the same - the diatonic C major scale - nothing changes, but by standing/facing the car from different angles - different Modes - I can see, describe, and add different aural details of the same car/scale.
As we know, the notes are the same (the same car) but by looking at the car/scale from a different angle I can add/emphasize different details.
Why do I need different details if so many tell me, “You get enough information just by standing in front of the car - Ionian/Aeolian Modes.”
Maybe yes, maybe no - who knows, but it’s a different question about idiosyncrasy.
 
#37
Understanding diatonic harmony combined with learning what secondary dominants are, will cover a lot of ground as a bassist.

The key with the modes(IME), is to look at them in parallel-always referring back to the major scale. Referring to them relatively,is where confusion sets in usually.
When doing this, you see how a note or two has changed; these changes are what will give the mode it's signature sound.
-let's look at Cminor/aeolian
-let's look at Cdorian
-the sole difference between the two scales is a natural 6 in Dorian and a b6 in aeolian.
-a common Dorian vamp/ progression in C would be C minor/F7; the natural 6 in the C Dorian plays nicely with the A in the F7 chord. If you use C aeolian over this vamp, your ear will tell you that the b6 is the problem note.

This is a simple example but very effective.
Modes are best when they are "caught" ; they require an "a-ha" moment... or at least they did for me.
 
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#38
joebar said:
Modes are best when they are "caught" ; they require an "a-ha" moment... or at least they did for me.
Click to expand...

Yes, it's that "a-ha" moment.
Sometimes one (a musician/bass player) could get just the chords, like Cmaj7 Amin7 Emin7.
For the "Root-5th" fans it's no problem, but what to do for those who tend to go beyond it?
Are those chords from the C major scale with F?
Are those chords from the E minor scale with F#?
 
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#40
Whousedtoplay said:
Yes, it's that "a-ha" moment.
Sometimes one (a musician/bass player) could get just the chords, like Cmaj7 Amin7 Emin7.
For the "Root-5th" fans it's no problem, but what to do for those who tend to go beyond it?
Are those chords from the C major scale with F?
Are those chords from the E minor scale with F#?
Click to expand...

When functional harmony doesn't answer the question, there are other ways to figure out the key. #1 learn the melody. I have a very cool lesson coming up for my video series that I shot Friday, focusing on exactly that. Chord progressions, alone, can be tricky, there are a number of things one can look at to discern the tonal center. BTW, not enough bass players learn to play the melodies of the songs they play
 
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