I really don't understand how we are supposed to afford this

#681
sean_on_bass said:
After not attending any ticketed shows for original live music for years, i ended up going to see Butcher Brown(jazz/hip hop/fusion) the day after Thanksgiving. $30 a head. Place was packed until the last note was played. There is apparently some recipe that can still work to get people out to pay and see a band. The band in question here plays music at the highest level, and has great original compositions. It kind of has me thinking that the bar is just really high for original music and live performance these days, and if you can't hit that standard then you just have to get better to get the following you desire.
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There's a big difference between ticketed gigs and bar gigs. If people were willing to pay $30 for a ticket, they want to see the whole show they paid for. If they just walked in for free, or for a $5 cover charge, they're much more willing to move on. Of course, doing originals, the whole thing is getting to the point where enough people know and like you to be willing to drop $30 on your show.
 
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#682
hrodbert696 said:
There's a big difference between ticketed gigs and bar gigs. If people were willing to pay $30 for a ticket, they want to see the whole show they paid for. If they just walked in for free, or for a $5 cover charge, they're much more willing to move on. Of course, doing originals, the whole thing is getting to the point where enough people know and like you to be willing to drop $30 on your show.
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Audiences are constantly coming for one band and then leaving. Happens all the time here. Sometimes promoters are bad at picking bands with an audience that will over lap, so the fans show up just before their band and then nope-out when the band after their band plays.
It is very frustrating because it makes it hard to reach new people. This year I've finally experienced working with a promoter that actual cared about his shows, and it made such a huge difference. So many shows I've played are complete clusters. There is one promoter we refuse to work with anymore who does NOTHING. Even less than usual. She doesn't even attend the shows she sets up.
 
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#683
FirewalZ said:
Interesting, so a publish and subscribe model? Hadn’t thought of that angle, less appealing for me personally.
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Yeah, this is how I see things going, also from some conversations with people in the music business. Take into account that:
  • Kids born after '10 have smartphones and tablets pretty much as body extensions
  • Ownership of goods is being slowly in general replaced by service subscription (even for cars!)
  • The streaming revolution has taught them and all of us that regular fruition of music comes at no direct(*) cost
  • The same streaming revolution - extended to video as well, see Netflix, Hulu, etc. - enabled and normalized the subscription model to access premium content
  • As reiterated on and on in the previous thread pages, the supply of music is larger than ever, however the ROI is abysmally low, and to stand out is increasingly becoming more and more difficult
  • Labels are (or were) a closed circle of marketing machines, and are now way more interested in marketing viral phenomena and chain them to 360 contracts than scout talent the traditional way
I'm not saying that the above is a good thing, but it's difficult to ignore that things are changing, and fast.


(*)= i.e. not linked to the specific product - song, album, video. Only internet provider, electricity, hardware and software costs.
 
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#685
KellyC said:
Unethical IMO. Cast the money changers out of the temple.
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That's all well and good to say, but when you are dealing with what is essentially a cartel, you don't have a lot of power. You can try to sell you merch out of a van in the parking lot, but that seems like a good way to get robbed.
Falling In Reverse recently said on stage to their audience that the venue they were playing, The Armory, was trying to take 20% out of them and they refused to sell their merch there. But they are a major band with label backing. Small bands don't have that luxury.
I've heard of other venues trying to shake down the merch booths for something other than what was agreed to. And while it is easy to say "No, that's not what is in the contract," when the venue has you in their location and surrounded by bouncers, and legal action would cost you more than what you would ever make in merch, *** are you supposed to do.

The reason I started this post is because I really don't think "pros" on TB understand what it is like for regular bands out there. We are getting shafted six ways from Sunday by everyone, but because we are actually writing and releasing our own music, and not playing weddings, churches, or corporate events, "F" us.
 
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#686
socialleper said:
That's all well and good to say, but when you are dealing with what is essentially a cartel, you don't have a lot of power. You can try to sell you merch out of a van in the parking lot, but that seems like a good way to get robbed.
Falling In Reverse recently said on stage to their audience that the venue they were playing, The Armory, was trying to take 20% out of them and they refused to sell their merch there. But they are a major band with label backing. Small bands don't have that luxury.
I've heard of other venues trying to shake down the merch booths for something other than what was agreed to. And while it is easy to say "No, that's not what is in the contract," when the venue has you in their location and surrounded by bouncers, and legal action would cost you more than what you would ever make in merch, *** are you supposed to do.

The reason I started this post is because I really don't think "pros" on TB understand what it is like for regular bands out there. We are getting shafted six ways from Sunday by everyone, but because we are actually writing and releasing our own music, and not playing weddings, churches, or corporate events, "F" us.
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I get it. It's a major problem, and it's likely to get worse unless several people with a lot of money and influence call attention to the situation and start opening artist-centric venues.
 
#687
New poster here, but did a few years of recording/playing shows with an original hard rock (admittedly pre-covid). It was never our full-time job, so we never "went for broke, travelling the country in an RV / Ford Econoline", but we tried to do as much as we could ourselves: we did our own artwork and we did as much of the recording of an album on our own as possible. We tracked in a home studio, then I believe we payed for a couple days of mixing (two days at a rate of $400 a day), as well as paid for mastering (I believe it was around $400, but certainly not by a bigshot well-known engineer, as this can cost MUCH more).

We mainly avoided promoters and worked directly with venues that had a lot of "3-4 bands play for the door" nights. If you follow bands with a similar sound, you can find out what those venues are. We never made a lot of money, but the only thing those venues took off the top was about $50 per band for the soundman. We kept the rest, which wasn't a lot, but we didn't have to pay either (we NEVER did pay-to-play or battle of the bands, those are borderline scams). Unfortunately, there are far more original artists than original venues, so we only played a handful of times a year. Again, we weren't trying to get famous, and I feel that online is probably the way to go for those trying to make it big.

The struggle with artists and merch cuts is very real. Good news is that as of a couple months ago, LiveNation ended the practice of charging merchandising fees for it's smaller venues. This should also pressure the non-LiveNation rooms to stop this practice as well (otherwise, touring artists will simply play the LiveNation rooms and keep their merch money). Kind of ironic, because the big guys started it, then the little guys realized they could get away with it because of that, and now the big guys have stopped doing it, so the little guys can't justify it anymore.

Lastly, #mymerch has set up a GREAT list of the "good" venues that let artists keep all their merch money:

North American 100% Venues #MyMerch Form (Responses)

And here's another list (in picture form) of venues that have stopped merch cuts:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6-NBmiaAAAh8Qi?format=jpg&name=large

Just my two drink tickets :p
 
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#688
primusfan1989 said:
No but venues taking cuts of Merch sales is pretty lame. Im not exactly sure of the circumstance that would justifiably entitle a venue to an artists mech sales
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I’m certainly not on the club owner’s side, but look at it from his point of view. He’s in business to make money. Every dollar his customers give to someone else is one less dollar they have to give to him. They buy your t-shirt or hoodie or CDs, that X number of drinks they might not buy from him.

I’m not saying that it’s right, it just is what it is.
 
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#689
Welcome to the forum, KSF.

I'm not sure X number of t-shirts equals -X number of drinks. Although the supply of $$ in a patron's pocket may be limited, I personally don't know anyone who makes that particular choice.... People are gonna drink. But that's just me. YMMV

IMNSHO, taking a cut of band's merch is a lowlife move. Why not just pay the band less? ... OOOPS. They already do, thanks to inflation, greed, etc.

I'll see myself out.
 
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#690
Give me a moment to don my suit of armor before posting this response... thanks. Musicians are artists. As such, they tend to see their art as valuable. Others sometimes don't. Example: Broken pipe? Call a plumber. He fixes the leak and you're happy. You have something tangible to equate as valuable for the visit: a dry basement. With music you go to a concert, hopefully enjoy it and then go home. The only tangible proof you have in the weeks to follow are phone pics, any merchandise you may have bought, a ticket stub and your memories. If the band failed to meet expectations, you now have a negative opinion. No one ever was upset over a dry basement (maybe over the ensuing bill). Plumbers don't have managers, booking agents, sound techs, roadies, and other sundry associates they split their profits with. Part of the entertainment industry is battling your way to the forefront in order to command a sufficient payday. This isn't always based on talent. Success bypasses some phenomenal musicians in order to provide an income stream to the suits who promote the most financially promising acts. Shoving some no-talent into the spotlight who can be exploited is preferable to giving the world worthwhile art for art's sake. Music is subjective and there is no litmus test for quality. The Kinks can bring as much enjoyment as Beethoven. Both have their audience and in some cases that audience overlaps to enjoy both. Does that make one inferior to the other? No. (Now, Milli Vanilli is another story entirely.) The public is fickle and the window for fame can close abruptly. Staying power is harder to manage than a one hit wonder. Until an act can convince the public they are worthy, they are forced to work for whatever they can get. That means sharing the profit of substandard wages with the list of associates listed above. A word to the wise, no matter how good you are: don't quit your day job.
 
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#693
Lost 5 venues this last 2 months.
I expect 3 of them to start up but I think the booker needs to have a good plan.
The solo or duo afterthought is killing things imv, because they still cost money but they promote a background entertainment gig.
Very few solo's are that great around here although one or two top vocals are very good in their bands...but solo and duo are really just filler and attract accordingly.
Of course, there are exceptions but largely they dilute the gigs and are the cheaper option.

As always, the really good venues and bars serve up an event and they pay over and above too.
 
#695
pepj said:
Lost 5 venues this last 2 months.
I expect 3 of them to start up but I think the booker needs to have a good plan.
The solo or duo afterthought is killing things imv, because they still cost money but they promote a background entertainment gig.
Very few solo's are that great around here although one or two top vocals are very good in their bands...but solo and duo are really just filler and attract accordingly.
Of course, there are exceptions but largely they dilute the gigs and are the cheaper option.

As always, the really good venues and bars serve up an event and they pay over and above too.
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We've seen construction work being done at one of the venues that closed here. We haven't heard anything about what is going in there or if they will have bands.
 
#696
My 5 Examples were venues that the Landlords left the business..implying that they were losing money throughout the lease.
New Landlords will come in but to make a go of it, the incommers will have to hit the road running which is something only very commited and focused people can do.

My guess is that 2 out of 5 will continue music on same basis as before, which is bands, not duos etc.

On an odd note, fees for general gigs tends to go down of late as venues struggle in uncertain times...we just decline those offers... but we are getting better rates by tapping into another scene in the next county.

The parallel confusion is the same as in the Classifieds...weird low prices and wild high prices, which points to the theory that no one has a real clue as to which way the economy is going..???
 
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