If it sounds good it doesn’t...

[Spent]

sound good in the mix. After spending most of my gig money on preamps and and amps, in an effort to acquire a unicorn, I mean achive the perfect tone, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that it is a fools errand. Long story, I’ll try to keep it brief...skip the next paragraph, you’ll thank me later.

My first real band was a cover band back in the mid 80s. At the time, being new to the bass, it was all about volume. Ended up with a Mesa Boggie 400 and Peavey BW (210 and 15). As I “matured”I ended up with a Ric 4001 and Gallien-Krueger 800RB; traded the Mesa for the Ric and a GK 200RCB (great amp, but underpowered). This change was primarily because I was playing in a pretty decent original band at the time, getting real gigs and some actual attention. The Mesa was too heavy and needed all new tubes. As the years progressed the realization sunk in that I was destined to work 9-5 at a “real job” and just be a rock star on weekends, it became all about convenience. I was gigging most weekends and needed everything to fit in my car, so I was thrilled when class D amps emerged. In reality, they sounded pretty good (mostly played GKs and Genz-Benz, still my favorites). Three years ago I got a pretty substantial promotion and had to quite the band thing; wanted more time with the family as the kids got older. About six months ago I started a new, progressive band with a few guys in the same situation. They are all seasoned semi-pro and one pro player, best musicians I’ve ever played with. Being a progressive band, we’re playing for us knowing the gigs will be few and far between. We also decided to just write music, thus guaranteeing obscurity. So now I’m really paying attention to my tone, something I always did, but it’s my top priority now as opposed to playing gigs as a part time job. So this is what I’ve discovered and always suspected...

If I sound good by myself, I do not sound good in the mix. I’ve tweaked my tone a bunch of times, then started playing, making minor adjustments and when we’re done I find all of that tweaking I did ahead of time was for naught. I hate my tone until the band starts playing. We record every practice and even when I listen to it later the bass sounds great in the mix. I’ve read this a bunch of times on TB, but didn’t want to believe it.

 

[Droopy_TX]

'Tis true, and most difficult.

I wouldn't really make a blanket statement about all tones, but you're right about it having to fit the mix. Same is true with guitarists. My guitarist spends countless hours tweaking the presets on his amp, only to come out either thin and piercing, or barely audible, when playing live.

You really need to tweak your tone in context.

Same reason they tell you when mixing, don't get hung up on soloing instruments.
That's good for trouble-shooting, but you really need to mix in context, too.

 

[Spent]

'Tis true, and most difficult.

I wouldn't really make a blanket statement about all tones, but you're right about it having to fit the mix. Same is true with guitarists. My guitarist spends countless hours tweaking the presets on his amp, only to come out either thin and piercing, or barely audible, when playing live.

You really need to tweak your tone in context.

Same reason they tell you when mixing, don't get hung up on soloing instruments.
That's good for trouble-shooting, but you really need to mix in context, too.

Agree, it may not apply to everyone, this is just my experience.

 

[two fingers]

I have said it here a thousand times. Your bedroom tone likely sucks in a mix.

You ever wonder why most of the time you go into a pro studio and there's a 1/4" cable waiting for you plugged into nothing but a good compressor? It's because your preamp, or amp, tone likely destroys a mix.

There is a myth floating around as well. "I you got a good sound guy or engineer, he can make ANY tone work in a mix".

Totally not true. Period. He is bound by the laws of physics just like the rest of us.

Try listening to some isolated tracks of Geddy Lee. By himself it sounds pretty awful. But it's magic in the mix.


Here's what I always suggest. Send the board something a little brighter than your favorite tone. If not, it'll be muddy mush or get buried. As a sound guy, if you send me something fairly bright I can do whatever I want with it.

I always err on the side of bright when I play live too. If the sound guy asks for more beef, I can certainly give it to him.

 

[s0c9]

As a soundguy (not a pro) LONG before I started playing guitar and bass.. this is SO-O-O true.
I've had numerous guys over the years who who "demand" to have "their tone" front and foremost in the "mix". Admittedly, mostly guitar players, but..
I often can't bring myself to tell them that all the reverb, delay and chorus in their patch will BURY the guitar in the mix.
Bass can be the same, but I still have problems with being sent low end MUSH !

Yesterday morning, I ran sound for a church Easter celebration

• 4 horns - Sax, 2 trumpet, trombone (individual mics behind a shield) ... TOO LOUD not is house mix, but ARE in streamed live feed.
• Electronic timpani - DI
• One electronic drumkit
• Percussion - rain stick, small xylophone, 25-tone chimes (single condenser mic)
• 23 voice Male/Female choir - two overheads
• Double Bass - DI from embedded pickup
• FOUR violins - TWO condenser mics placed between 1/2, 3/4
• TWO Cellos - ONE mic place between them
• Flute and Clarinet - ONE mic placed between them.
• Headset mic for Pastor
• One Podium mic - used by THREE different people, both speaking AND singing.
• One Handheld mic (singing only)
• One backup mic - under offering stage, same as handheld above.
• One piano - with TWO mics on it (HF and LF)
• Two overhead mics to capture the 12-person HAND BELL group stage left - out in FRONT of the PA.
• oh, and one YUGE church PIPE organ that is NOT under FOH control. What you hear in the video (link below) is coming from ambient mics Stage L/ + R and bleed into other stage mics.

LOTS happening on the stage, with control limited by available mics, stands, etc
I can't embed the vid, but if you go to 5:31 on the vid link, you can hear some of the live feed mix.
There's a good song at 36:25
FUMCG

In comparison - a 5 or 6 piece band is relatively easy !!

 

[Droopy_TX]

I can't embed the vid, but if you go to 5:31 on the vid link, you can hear some of the live feed mix.
There's a good song at 36:25

Very nice job, sir.

 

[s0c9]

Very nice job, sir.

Thanks!! It was a little hectic

 

[Spent]

Thanks!! It was a little hectic

A little hectic? What’s your next move, single handedly mixing Trans Siberian Orchestra live?

 

[s0c9]

A little hectic? What’s your next move, single handedly mixing Trans Siberian Orchestra live?

Ha !! NO, next Sun, I'm back to no strings and no horns or percussion
At the end of the month I'm putting on Le Freak (local franchise), Incognito (well known local rock band) and Chris Knight. Maybe some others, idk yet.
They'll probably all bring their own FOH guys tho.

oh.. AND learning about 30 new songs for a new Country band that we're throwing together.

 

[Spent]

oh.. AND learning about 30 new songs for a new Country band that we're throwing together.

My former recent cover band is doing benefit to raise money for fallen police officers. The bass player can’t make it so they asked me to help out. Great cause, so I said yes. I now have 18 days to learn 36 songs. I feel (some of) your pain.

 

[s0c9]

My former recent cover band is doing benefit to raise money for fallen police officers. The bass player can’t make it so they asked me to help out. Great cause, so I said yes. I now have 18 days to learn 36 songs. I feel (some of) your pain.

Best wishes on that... when I sub, I generally transcribe songs and take OnSong with me to gigs as cheat sheets.
I prefer to have them down tho.. but reality sometimes hits home

 

[Two-Spirit]

I have said it here a thousand times. Your bedroom tone likely sucks in a mix.

You ever wonder why most of the time you go into a pro studio and there's a 1/4" cable waiting for you plugged into nothing but a good compressor? It's because your preamp, or amp, tone likely destroys a mix.

There is a myth floating around as well. "I you got a good sound guy or engineer, he can make ANY tone work in a mix".

Totally not true. Period. He is bound by the laws of physics just like the rest of us.

Try listening to some isolated tracks of Geddy Lee. By himself it sounds pretty awful. But it's magic in the mix.


Here's what I always suggest. Send the board something a little brighter than your favorite tone. If not, it'll be muddy mush or get buried. As a sound guy, if you send me something fairly bright I can do whatever I want with it.

I always err on the side of bright when I play live too. If the sound guy asks for more beef, I can certainly give it to him.

There is something in that tone I like, its rich.

 

[Spent]

Best wishes on that... when I sub, I generally transcribe songs and take OnSong with me to gigs as cheat sheets.
I prefer to have them down tho.. but reality sometimes hits home

Luckily it mostly top 40/dance music. I’ve been making cheat sheets, checking out YouTube bass lessons and tab sites. I just have to get it down for one gig. 30+ years of experience helps.

 

[somegeezer]

Get a tone you both like on its own and in the mix, and you can have the best of both worlds.

 

[inanimate_carb]

Part of the issue is that most active basses provide a very full, hi-fi tone with lots of lows, lots of highs, and whatever mids the preamp allows. This lets the bass sound to take up a lot of sonic real estate in the sound spectrum, which doesn't mix well. It'll mix, but it takes a lot of effort and time in many cases.

A lower fidelity tone that isn't juiced up slots better in a mix because it doesn't compete with other frequencies that are typically reserved for other instruments. I know that most TB members take a solemn vow to cause bodily harm to any producer or engineer that suggests that they use a Precision Bass in a studio situation, but the not-so-pretty, low-bandwidth tone is a big part of the reason why they are so popular for recording.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Ok so IMO, there are two sides:

First, IME if something sounds like crap soloed, it's not going to sound any better in the mix. I hear people say "if it sounds good in the mix, it doesn't matter how it sounds soloed" and I get that statement. But in real life I've not yet heard a crappy sounding instrument sound a lot better when played with the other instruments ever.

That's being said, here's the other side of the same coin: again IME when most of us listen to the bass soloed, for some reason we add a lot of bass, bells and whistles.. I find my self turning down the bass frequencies more often to get the instrument loud enough in a busy mix. Most of the time I use either a passive p or a j with minimal EQ and it sits very well in the mix.

 

[Aqualung60]

I have said it here a thousand times. Your bedroom tone likely sucks in a mix.

You ever wonder why most of the time you go into a pro studio and there's a 1/4" cable waiting for you plugged into nothing but a good compressor? It's because your preamp, or amp, tone likely destroys a mix.

There is a myth floating around as well. "I you got a good sound guy or engineer, he can make ANY tone work in a mix".

Totally not true. Period. He is bound by the laws of physics just like the rest of us.

Try listening to some isolated tracks of Geddy Lee. By himself it sounds pretty awful. But it's magic in the mix.


Here's what I always suggest. Send the board something a little brighter than your favorite tone. If not, it'll be muddy mush or get buried. As a sound guy, if you send me something fairly bright I can do whatever I want with it.

I always err on the side of bright when I play live too. If the sound guy asks for more beef, I can certainly give it to him.

This it it in a nutshell.

 

[madbass6]

sound good in the mix. After spending most of my gig money on preamps and and amps, in an effort to acquire a unicorn, I mean achive the perfect tone, I’ve resigned myself to the fact that it is a fools errand. Long story, I’ll try to keep it brief...skip the next paragraph, you’ll thank me later.

My first real band was a cover band back in the mid 80s. At the time, being new to the bass, it was all about volume. Ended up with a Mesa Boggie 400 and Peavey BW (210 and 15). As I “matured”I ended up with a Ric 4001 and Gallien-Krueger 800RB; traded the Mesa for the Ric and a GK 200RCB (great amp, but underpowered). This change was primarily because I was playing in a pretty decent original band at the time, getting real gigs and some actual attention. The Mesa was too heavy and needed all new tubes. As the years progressed the realization sunk in that I was destined to work 9-5 at a “real job” and just be a rock star on weekends, it became all about convenience. I was gigging most weekends and needed everything to fit in my car, so I was thrilled when class D amps emerged. In reality, they sounded pretty good (mostly played GKs and Genz-Benz, still my favorites). Three years ago I got a pretty substantial promotion and had to quite the band thing; wanted more time with the family as the kids got older. About six months ago I started a new, progressive band with a few guys in the same situation. They are all seasoned semi-pro and one pro player, best musicians I’ve ever played with. Being a progressive band, we’re playing for us knowing the gigs will be few and far between. We also decided to just write music, thus guaranteeing obscurity. So now I’m really paying attention to my tone, something I always did, but it’s my top priority now as opposed to playing gigs as a part time job. So this is what I’ve discovered and always suspected...

If I sound good by myself, I do not sound good in the mix. I’ve tweaked my tone a bunch of times, then started playing, making minor adjustments and when we’re done I find all of that tweaking I did ahead of time was for naught. I hate my tone until the band starts playing. We record every practice and even when I listen to it later the bass sounds great in the mix. I’ve read this a bunch of times on TB, but didn’t want to believe it.

I beilieved it when you said you'll keep it short.. :..(

 

[mark roberts]

Good posts. Bassists know your part, go with what the golden ears at the mixing desk in the studio knows and communicate to that person the final expectations for bass in-the-studio mix.

 

[Bassbeater]

I get a lot of mileage out of preamps. I seek the tone that sounds good in the mix for the genre. Frequently it doesn't sound nice soloed.
Some preamps are better at certain types of tones than others. When recording, typically a simpler signal chain provides more options later, and the DAW is an option-rich environment. However, for the most part, preamps don't ruin your tone, the settings you've chosen might though.