Double Bass Is this normal now?

I just got in from seeing the Del McCoury band (fantastic show!!!!), a definitely NOT jazz genre, in a style of music where charts are NOT accepted (bluegrass), performed by a living legend and national treasure who has been gigging for well over a half century. Guess what???? He blatantly used charts in the center of the main stage for several songs and even talked about them with the audience. Dell Yeah!!!!

That aside, this whole conversation has made me more aware of my own use of charts and real books on the job this month and consciously helped me to just take a quick glance and use them more as light reminders and suggestions and to be more aware of not staring at the page the whole song. I'll offer up a formal thank you to the chart police.
 
Sometimes I think it's as much a matter of being conscious of where your face is pointing as it is about whatever you're actually looking at. A lot of musicians just blank out a bit on certain things like their facial expressions and all when their brain is focused so much on what the ears and hands are doing, and their faces might be pointed at the chart, but they're staring through it rather than at it.

I know that's certainly the case with me sometimes—I've got good short-term memory for a song, look at the chart or the changes for the first chorus or two and after that it's just there in case I need a reminder—but I also had my teachers in college (for jazz stuff, for bass stuff, for conducting even) reminding me that I need to consider what my face is actually doing, because a lot of people will listen with their eyes as much as with their ears.

Don't ask me to try to memorize too much, though, I don't play out nearly enough for that and after the concussion I had ages ago it feels like my long-term memory is really only good for "Places to Eat" and "Pretty Girls."
 
I definitely recognize that charts and reading are great and necessary, even on stage. But it's important to recognize that the audience can tell when someone is doing improv, by the energy that it gives to the whole presentation.

I’m not sure we agree on what improvisation involves. When Brian Bromberg says he was given charts on his gigs with Stan Getz, Herbie Hancock etc, I can guarantee that he was improvising, interacting and making visual contact on stage. The fact that lead sheets have no individual parts written on them makes it impossible to use them without improvising.
 
Just for the record, I'm not trying to have an attitude in here, I'm just sharing my opinion that the performance of the music is by far the most important thing. If that means looking at a chart (I use charts all the time when I am playing other artists shows as I don't have the time to memorize 4-6 page charts on ten songs that I may play once or twice) makes your performance better, than that's a good thing. Again, the performance of the music always comes first, at least to me.

It's funny as I just thought of this, there are some orchestra conductors that read the score when they conduct, there are some that have the score on their stand but it remains closed, and there are some who have no score on the stand at all. Who is right? Does it really matter? Is the performance of the orchestra going to be different because of that? Doubtful. Something to think about.....
 
Unless charts have actual written bass parts or bass lines, they are just maps, directions on what to do and where to go in the music. In jazz, we all know it is about the improvisation. Just because you are looking at a chart with chord changes and form does not take anything away from the improvisational aspect of the music. Once you state the melody it is all about the improvisation.
 
I'm with Brian on this. Everyone is different. For whatever reasons, I've never been one of those folks who could memorize entire sonati, concerti, etc., with confidence and ALWAYS sweated my under- and graduate recitals as a violin performance major. It took some MAJOR negotiation to get my violin professor and advisors to allow me to keep music on stage with me (back in the 70s and 80s... not sure if it's changed since then or not). I didn't refer to it, but the fact that it was there and available if I had a lapse was comforting. Being a strong reader has, in some ways, made me less reliant on memory, potentially to a fault. I'm aware of the my own personal tendency to enjoy the "security blanket" of a chart, and am working to wean myself of that.

Case in point...I played a gig a few days ago, primarily on piano but one piece on upright bass. The leader sent me a few tunes he wanted to do as a duo with me (he's a woodwind player... soprano sax and flute on this gig... we did two soprano/piano tunes and one flute/bass tune) and a few others with the group he was directing (I was kind of a guest artist). Three of the tunes were ones that weren't on my "internal playlist." I spent a little time playing through them at home that morning (just got the list... didn't procrastinate) and vowed not to take charts with me (partly due to this thread). It went great... no lapses at all, even on the one tune with a lot of "right angles" in it.

There is always much to be gained by venturing out of one's comfort zone. Have difficulty reading? Read more. Have security issues without charts? Give it a shot. The music is what matters, as Brian said.
 
Part of the issue here is the difference between playing by memory and playing by ear. When I really know a tune or a piece of "classical" music, I play it by ear not from memory. When I'm playing with folks regularly and we're playing standard jazz rep I'm good. The problem is, this is not always the case. Also, there are regional differences in what that standard rep is. For example, I am the house bassist at a session and recently a little group of new to town guys have been showing up. Apparently where they're from Tadd Dameron tunes - Our Delight for example - are standard rep. Sorry, I've got my iReal app out for those and after a chorus or 3 I can look away.
 
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Well. I'm not anywhere near being in the same category as Mr. Bromberg (obligatory fanboy gush here) but I think his point is exactly right. There seems to be an idea - and I suspect it's strongest amongst rock musicians - that having a lead sheet in front of you means you're just slavishly following the dots and can't adjust adapt or go with what you hear. But in 45 years of playing African American improvised music (jazz, blues, rock, bluegrass, country) I have NEVER played with an experienced musician who exhibited this "head in the stand" stance that so many seem afraid of. All the experienced musicians I've worked with have understood that the dots are just a guide.
 
I just got in from seeing the Del McCoury band (fantastic show!!!!), a definitely NOT jazz genre, in a style of music where charts are NOT accepted (bluegrass), performed by a living legend and national treasure who has been gigging for well over a half century. Guess what???? He blatantly used charts in the center of the main stage for several songs and even talked about them with the audience. Dell Yeah!!!!

That aside, this whole conversation has made me more aware of my own use of charts and real books on the job this month and consciously helped me to just take a quick glance and use them more as light reminders and suggestions and to be more aware of not staring at the page the whole song. I'll offer up a formal thank you to the chart police.
Well, Del's an old guy and he doesn't have to prove himself. If he finds it easier to keep track of the tunes with paper so he can use his mental capacity on a great performance instead of trying to remember if that next tune stays on G major or goes to E minor, that seems reasonable to me. I think a lot of this "no charts, ever!" stuff comes from guys with tiny weenies who want to prove they've got the big swinging weenie...to which I always say "OK, i lo
se, you're the winner, can we move on now please?
 
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Well, Del's an old guy and he doesn't have to prove himself. If he finds it easier to keep track of the tunes with paper so he can use his mental capacity on a great performance instead of trying to remember if that next tune stays on G major or goes to E minor, that seems reasonable to me. I think a lot of this "no charts, ever!" stuff comes from guys with tiny weenies who want to prove they've got the big swinging weenie...to which I always say "OK, i lo
se, you're the winner, can we move on now please?
That's funny!
 
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Around my parts (and I'd bet most parts) jazz players are not making a living playing jazz. In fact, very few people I know make a living solely playing music in any genre. What that means is you have players with a fraction of the time that the full-time player old school giants had, working out of a vastly larger repertoire of tunes, coming together trying to keep an art form alive that a good number of people frankly just don't care about anymore. Personally, I'll give 'em a pass on charts if it keeps the music playing.
 
That is very true. Most players and bands don't play enough for everyone to learn and memorize the music unless you play the same show every time you play a show, which i don't. As a band leader I would always much rather have musicians read music and play the show correctly than not read the music and make form mistakes. You never get a second chance to make a first impression. If you or your guys mess up the music it will be blatantly obvious and that ain't cool.....
 
Well. I'm not anywhere near being in the same category as Mr. Bromberg (obligatory fanboy gush here) but I think his point is exactly right. There seems to be an idea - and I suspect it's strongest amongst rock musicians - that having a lead sheet in front of you means you're just slavishly following the dots and can't adjust adapt or go with what you hear. But in 45 years of playing African American improvised music (jazz, blues, rock, bluegrass, country) I have NEVER played with an experienced musician who exhibited this "head in the stand" stance that so many seem afraid of. All the experienced musicians I've worked with have understood that the dots are just a guide.

Rock musicians whose heroes often have teleprompters on the stage with lyrics and chords written out like some tab/karaoke combo. But since they're down by the monitors, no probs!
 
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the music always comes first!

play the show correctly

This catches my eye because I can relate to it; we also have questions about "musical perfection" of songs in bluegrass...

In bluegrass we have some folks who consider as primary importance that a song follows -- even to the point of being exactly copied -- an arrangement of a particular historical artist. And we have some folks who consider as primary importance a song being well synchronized with folks (in a jam or a band), with little or no emphasis on a particular arrangement other than form. And, to be gentle about it, the division of these two groups of folks in bluegrass is sometimes painfully obvious.

I've read of various versions of this in other genre. In bluegrass, since there is very little actual detailed musical score; this is primarily a "listen to a recording" and then memorization related subject. In jazz though, there is detailed written music available, so it is possible if desired to perform an exact arrangement from a detailed musical score copy -- or -- it seems, people can perform from memory by listening and/or reading and/or improvising.

Again, as an example, the old-jazz small big bands I watch perform: since they clearly aren't reading, I can only guess that they have memorized and/or are at least partially improvising the songs they play.

So, I guess we're mostly talking about how to deal with specific arrangements. What effectively decides how this is done in Jazz? Is this just an old-jazz thing, is this a band leader decision, or is there something more universally consistent that decides the proper direction for this?

Knowing this might be helpful for me to bring back to bluegrass. :)
 
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So, I guess we're mostly talking about how to deal with specific arrangements. What effectively decides how this is done in Jazz? Is this just an old-jazz thing, is this a band leader decision, or is there something more universally consistent that decides the proper direction for this?

I know this isn't really helpful, but I think the best answer to your questions is... It depends :) I don't think there's anything universally consistent. At least there isn't in my musical experiences.
 
dhergert, very good points and questions. In jazz, even when you are looking at a chart and reading, you are still 99% improvising. Unless there is a specific bass part written out, then you are improvising on the song form and chord changes. It is just a map to follow. Many times when you do a session with a big band or orchestra etc. they will be arrangements that were written by an arranger specifically for each instrument. The bass parts can be written out note for note through the entire arrangement because that is what the arranger wants to hear, those very specific notes. Or, it can be a mixture of specific notes that he wanted to hear at certain sections of the songs so you will read the notes they want, or you might just get a chart of chord changes and the rest is up to you.

The end result is what is most important and I guarantee you that when you listen to the end result you might not hear any difference except if there is a melody line or specific figure that the bass plays.

At times, because of what jazz is, that map can be complicated with many chord changes per bar and interesting form sections to follow. Sometimes those chart can take a very long time to learn and memorize, and sometimes those charts are just given to you at the gig with no advance preparation. I agree that for some having charts can be a security blanket. If that's what those players need then God bless them, that's what they need. If their performance is better because of that then it should not matter as I always say the music comes first.
A big difference in jazz is that there are so many great classic recordings of jazz standards. Many are similar in nature and some are quite different. That to me is the beauty of jazz, you make it your own. You re-harmonize the chord changes, change the tempo, time signature, vibe, feel, etc. Instead of replicating what was done in the past, even if it has historical significance, in jazz most pay respect to the classics by making it their own. On my LaFaro album for the most part I kept everything pretty much like the originals because hey if it ain't broken don't fix it! But, I completely changed the approach to the classic Bill Evans song "Waltz for Debby". I did it as a bossa in 4 instead of a waltz in 3. That is a good example of taking a classic and making it your own and still honoring the beauty of the song. I am far from a harmonic genius, trust me, but I also made one very small chord change on my version of Cantaloupe Island on my "Downright Upright" album. There are 4 bars of D sus or D something on the original, don't remember actually! What I did was change the second D to a Db7 or sometimes we play a Db Major 7 for two bars. Let me tell you that a very little change like that makes a huge difference and to much of my amazement was heard around the world, because people are playing it that way now. They call it the Bromberg version, nuts! The point is in jazz it is expected to make things your own and to put your thing on the music, even if it is a very small change that gives the song an identity associated to you. Sorry for the stream of thought long response, but even if someone is reading a chart they are still mainly improvising from note one using the chart as a road map.
 
Thank you Brent and Brian... Great learning posts for me, I'll spend some time digesting them.

I hope my terminology isn't confusing things. Speaking as mostly an outsider, I have been up to this point calling mostly pre-WW2 jazz "old jazz", meaning Dixieland, New Orleans, early Chicago, etc. Is that an accurate -- or better, the proper -- way to distinguish this period of the Jazz genre? Also, what are the other periods or types of Jazz called?
 
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