Jeff Berlin says - Every Slapper and Rocker at NAMM Is Self Taught

[JeffBerlin]

This thread can put a perspective on bass education in a much more practical manner. While at NAMM, try and ask other bass players at the show how they acquired their skills to play rock and slap. There are a lot of famous guys there as well and they can share how they learned if you ask them this. Also, ask some of the guys that are jamming in the booths who aren't name players. Exceptions aside, you will find that they all are self taught in these styles.

If, at the most most concentrated gathering of bass players on Earth, you find barely anyone who acquired these skills in an academic setting, then it could be enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that no matter what your teachers say about it or how their students feel about it, the truth is that teaching these styles didn't produce positive results that are as measurable as those produced in other musical disciplines, and that the teaching of slap and rock in schools or with teachers is an experiment that doesn't work.

Once you've discovered for yourselves how players in these styles acquired their musical thing, the good new is that it gives you new evidence and new thoughts to hopefully inspire you away from something educationally flawed and toward something educationally meaningful. But, you have to be open to what you find out and allow this to change your old beliefs and let your new illumination guide you to a much more rewarding approach in learning these styles. I hope so!

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Well, no, that doesn’t provide any type of evidence that it didn’t provide positive results nor show that it is an experiment that doesn’t work.

For that, you would need to find people who did learn to slap from a teacher and it produced negative results or at the minimum lesser results than those being self taught. Those who did not learn in an academic fashion can’t provide any validity to the idea that academic training of it doesn’t work because they haven’t experienced it.

I’m not saying teaching slap is a good idea mind you- it’s just that this sort of conjecture is inherently flawed as it’s a logical fallacy. It doesn’t say anything about an aspect of teaching because a lot of people don’t use it. Before the advent of standard notation, not a single great musician in history read standard notation- that certainly doesn’t mean that there’s no good reason to teach standard notation does it?

As a side note, do you think that all forms of technique should not be taught by teachers, including fingerstyle, slap, left hand techniques such as Simandl, thumb position, etc?

 

[bolophonic]

What?

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

What?

What to who?

 

[bolophonic]

What to who?

Not to you.

 

[pickles]

That’s an extreme take on it, but it’s a fair point that success as a rock musician has less to do with anything you could learn about theory and more about, to quote the great stephen malkmus (did he ever go to music school?), “managing to elucidate something that was on all of their minds”.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Self taught slappers, might be true for 50+ yo players.

I'd say that most slappers from Generation X learned either from Slap It! or from Alexis Sklarevski's slap bass program.
Usually it shows in their playing which they studied first.

Nearly 100% of younger players learned slap by themselves from YouTube, just like they learned everything else. Teachers don't come into the equation before you reach a much higher level.
Bass is a popular instrument. If your parents are rich enough to pay for lessons you learn saxophone, piano or trumpet.

Now there is something I don't clearly understand in the argument/proposition.
Learning proper playing technique is considered essential with classical instruments, even those close to bass like upright.vWhat makes electric bass different, other than being younger?

 

[pickles]

I started by watching flea on the higher ground video and a couple articles in bass player. Then I learned every chili peppers song, grover washington “winelight” album, and “peg”. At that point you pretty much have slap figured out. I’ve never found a use for anything more advanced than that in music that I like. I’m 40.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Self taught slappers, might be true for 50+ yo players.

I'd say that most slappers from Generation X learned either from Slap It! or from Alexis Sklarevski's slap bass program.
Usually it shows in their playing which they studied first.

Nearly 100% of younger players learned slap by themselves from YouTube, just like they learned everything else. Teachers don't come into the equation before you reach a much higher level.
Bass is a popular instrument. If your parents are rich enough to pay for lessons you learn saxophone, piano or trumpet.

Now there is something I don't clearly understand in the argument/proposition.
Learning proper playing technique is considered essential with classical instruments, even those close to bass like upright.vWhat makes electric bass different, other than being younger?

Bass educators changed entirely how the instrument could be taught if they simply subscribed to those methods of learn that were proven to improve players. Instead, many did a 180 and decided to invent or adopt philosophies from other disciplines that don't apply to the teaching of bass. In essence, they fixed an educational methodology that wasn't broken in the first place.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Well, no, that doesn’t provide any type of evidence that it didn’t provide positive results nor show that it is an experiment that doesn’t work.

It will indicate the source of learning that created those players in the first place. I predict a huge response of being self taught which should get some to think that students paying to learn slap or rock may be spending an awful lot of money to be taught things that nearly everyone else learns for free. Then do what you wish with the information that you gather.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I started by watching flea on the higher ground video and a couple articles in bass player. Then I learned every chili peppers song, grover washington “winelight” album, and “peg”. At that point you pretty much have slap figured out. I’ve never found a use for anything more advanced than that in music that I like. I’m 40.

You are a perfect "graduate" of the self taught slap approach. This makes total sense to me.

 

[consectaneus]

I think you are close to causing a division of two types of music, classical and folk. Classical is training in pure musical content and established technique formally taught, and folk is everything people learn on their own or is passed down outside of established formal ways of of learning. Folk music then should not be taught since it can be figured out on our own, the way our would-be teacher, (or his teacher) learned it in the first place...by listening to records, or hanging around and watching musicians play and picking it up.

Now I think you are right on one score. Music learned this way through trial and error can and has led to originality and innovation. Think of the different regional styles of old time music within Appalachia, or the regional blues style which differentiate the Piedmont, Mississippi, and Chicago blues.

I know you tout Jazz as the best vehicle for learning music, but in practice it should fall into the folk tradition as well because I'd bet the best were not formally taught "Jazz". It stands to reason that one would be similarly throwing their money away paying for something they can get for free.

I'm fine with anyone paying for anything that can be taught if they wish to. What can't be taught of course is originality and this is what you seem to be advocating for.

 

[JeffBerlin]

A couple of times on other threads, I invited people on Talkbass to choose ten or so top players on any instrument from any time period from the time of Bach up to today. I invited them to investigate how they all learned. They would discover that they all were either self taught or they were only trained in written musical content to practice. I suggested that people do this to find out for themselves that the broad approach popular in bass education has little to no association in how nearly all musicians anywhere in the world and during any time in music history learned how to play.

I don't think that anyone did this because no one reported back what they found out.

This is the same situation. People are offering opinions before they've asked even their friends that play rock or slap how they learned those styles of music. Opinions matter to people here. But, I submit that research will give your opinions more meaning.

A reliable way to acquire insight in how slappers and rockers learned how to slap and rock is to ask them. I will bet that, exceptions aside, they are all self taught which is my term for being entirely in charge of one's decisions about what they wish to use to learn how to play with. In music schools and with music teachers, you lose the right to make these decisions.

Research this and glean from what you discover for yourselves to ponder. Then, after NAMM, I'll post another thread and call it, "What Did Rockers and Slappers at NAMM Tell You About How They Learned These Styles." Then post your research there.

 

[Lesfunk]

I learned to slap from Larry Graham!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think you are close to causing a division of two types of music, classical and folk. Classical is training in pure musical content and established technique formally taught, and folk is everything people learn on their own or is passed down outside of established formal ways of of learning. Folk music then should not be taught since it can be figured out on our own, the way our would-be teacher, (or his teacher) learned it in the first place...by listening to records, or hanging around and watching musicians play and picking it up.

Now I think you are right on one score. Music learned this way through trial and error can and has led to originality and innovation. Think of the different regional styles of old time music within Appalachia, or the regional blues style which differentiate the Piedmont, Mississippi, and Chicago blues.

I know you tout Jazz as the best vehicle for learning music, but in practice it should fall into the folk tradition as well because I'd bet the best were not formally taught "Jazz". It stands to reason that one would be similarly throwing their money away paying for something they can get for free.

I'm fine with anyone paying for anything that can be taught if they wish to. What can't be taught of course is originality and this is what you seem to be advocating for.

If you aren't going to NAMM, ask around your town. See what you discover. This is all that matters here. Also division isn't always a bad thing if one is divided from an insupportable philosophy.

 

[FantasticFour]

In music schools and with music teachers, you lose the right to make these decisions.

But is that a good or a bad thing?

 

[JeffBerlin]

But is that a good or a bad thing?

It is a very bad thing because it puts people that are not qualified to know what they need to learn in order to improve in charge of their improvement. I've never heard of such a thing in any other educational setting. It shows me yet another bit of evidence that bass education is really not doing a good job for its students.

 

[Acoustic356]

A lot of these people are also innovators. Innovation can't be taught, because it hasn't been done before...

 

[consectaneus]

If you aren't going to NAMM, ask around your town. See what you discover. This is all that matters here. Also division isn't always a bad thing if one is divided from an insupportable philosophy.

Personally speaking, I have no horse in the race one way or another. In fact I'd be willing to stipulate that everyone you ask will say they figured it out on their own, by watching Larry Graham, or a video, or a buddy, or wherever. Your issue with learning slap or rock seems to be as a formal curriculum where tuition is charged, because it's taking advantage of unwitting students by unscrupulous teachers.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

It will indicate the source of learning that created those players in the first place. I predict a huge response of being self taught which should get some to think that students paying to learn slap or rock may be spending an awful lot of money to be taught things that nearly everyone else learns for free. Then do what you wish with the information that you gather.

Indicating a primary source of learning does not say anything about the potential failings of a different source of learning. If you feel students are spending too much money on something they can learn fairly easily themselves it’s one thing, but claiming that another form of learning doesn’t work or doesn’t provide positive results is completely baseless based on the information you provided us. Given that there are people who teach slap as part of their lesson plan and/or income, it’s disingenuous to throw them under the bus and say that they’re what they are teaching doesn’t work when there’s no evidence showing that whatsoever.