Jeff Berlin says - Every Slapper and Rocker at NAMM Is Self Taught

[DirtDog]

Well, this does point to the fact that not everyone who tries to employ the scientific method actually succeeds at it! Time to break out the pencil and clipboard, gather some data and throw it into a Chi-square test perhaps?

But I do believe that slap should be the last thing taught to bassists, after groove.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

Indicating a primary source of learning does not say anything about the potential failings of a different source of learning. If you feel students are spending too much money on something they can learn fairly easily themselves it’s one thing, but claiming that another form of learning doesn’t work or doesn’t provide positive results is completely baseless based on the information you provided us. Given that there are people who teach slap as part of their lesson plan and/or income, it’s disingenuous to throw them under the bus and say that they’re what they are teaching doesn’t work when there’s no evidence showing that whatsoever.

My main question would be if, and how many, self-taught instructors got a degree (or at least a type of certification) in some form of pedagogy. If yes, then there is some debate to all this. If not, then why are they teaching anything in the first place? At least without being straight forward about such facts.

 

[JeffBerlin]

A lot of these people are also innovators. Innovation can't be taught, because it hasn't been done before...

Certainly as players, innovation is unique and unteachable. But being innovative in teaching implies that some improvement has been made. I don't believe that any bass teacher can show how they have improved anything. If people don't agree, then I suggest researching how musicians were taught before bass players changed the educational playing field.

 

[electracoyote]

I learned to slap from Larry Graham!

As did most of us, either directly or indirectly.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Indicating a primary source of learning does not say anything about the potential failings of a different source of learning. If you feel students are spending too much money on something they can learn fairly easily themselves it’s one thing, but claiming that another form of learning doesn’t work or doesn’t provide positive results is completely baseless based on the information you provided us. Given that there are people who teach slap as part of their lesson plan and/or income, it’s disingenuous to throw them under the bus and say that they’re what they are teaching doesn’t work when there’s no evidence showing that whatsoever.

It is about time that someone mentioned the financial needs of bass teachers. If a slap or rock teacher's income is contingent upon teaching a subject that doesn't warrant paying to learn, then they have the responsibility to earn the title of "Teacher" and learn more about music to teach it to their students instead of offering a service for pay that doesn't warrant investing in. What's the priority here? Their income or the service that they promised to provide?

Being thrown under a bus is an interesting metaphor and it raises a thought in me: If one wishes to improve, then they will do anything they can to accomplish this. Others here on TB and other bass sites have publicly stated that they are not interested in even learning what the right notes are, that groove counts more even if they don't know what they are playing. Others have argued that I am brow beating them by suggesting that they learn music to practice and that they aren't interested in anything other than playing a few songs.

No one is being thrown under a bus. Many bass players don't want to improve and have publicly stated this, the most ridiculous public declaration pertaining to the justification of musical mediocrity and not one person protested or criticized this philosophy. Their goals aren't my interest. But because so few bass players seem actually interested in improving their playing, I don't think that advising people that rock or slap lessons are ineffective in making improved bass players in these concepts throws anyone under a bus. If there isn't a slap or rock teacher to study with, how are these players even negatively affected.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Indicating a primary source of learning does not say anything about the potential failings of a different source of learning. If you feel students are spending too much money on something they can learn fairly easily themselves it’s one thing, but claiming that another form of learning doesn’t work or doesn’t provide positive results is completely baseless based on the information you provided us. Given that there are people who teach slap as part of their lesson plan and/or income, it’s disingenuous to throw them under the bus and say that they’re what they are teaching doesn’t work when there’s no evidence showing that whatsoever.

Well, I did ask that people check this out for themselves. This is a bass forum and I don't know that I can prove conclusively my views. This is why I specifically used the expression "circumstantial evidence" in my opening post.

Asking as many slappers or rockers how they learned these skills should give a good insight into how these musical approaches are learned. I suspect that, as with others, you haven't asked anyone in these styles how they acquired their skills. Thus, all wee seem to be left with is people stating their opinions.

 

[5StringBlues]

My old man taught me all about slap before I even started on bass!

 

[JeffBerlin]

o you think that all forms of technique should not be taught by teachers, including fingerstyle, slap, left hand techniques such as Simandl, thumb position, etc?

For the most part, no! Without teaching students music, what students end up with is a thumb position a la Smandel (technique that is taught for a completely different instrument than the electric bass) and technique but without a musical reason to use it.

Practicing musical content brings one's entire technical ability into use. You now have a reason to use your technical proficiency to play the notes or else you are just moving your fingers for no reason.

Slap teachers are self taught in the style. Rock musicians are as well. Instead of financing a faction of bass education that teaches principles that the successful players/teachers themselves learned on their own, it seems to me that the best lesson that one can learn from these instructors is that if practically everyone in slap and rock are self taught, then why can't I be.

At least this is how my logic seems to work.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Personally speaking, I have no horse in the race one way or another. In fact I'd be willing to stipulate that everyone you ask will say they figured it out on their own, by watching Larry Graham, or a video, or a buddy, or wherever. Your issue with learning slap or rock seems to be as a formal curriculum where tuition is charged, because it's taking advantage of unwitting students by unscrupulous teachers.

Not unscrupulous teachers. I don't believe that there are any. I believe that practically all teachers care about what they are doing and want to help their students play better.

But, this doesn't mean that students are going to improve. I thought that people preparing to spend money to be taught musical principles that I believe don't warrant any financial investment should ponder this before they make their final decisions about this.

 

[JeffBerlin]

My old man taught me all about slap before I even started on bass!

There you go! Lots of people were taught by family members or friends. Or videos. Or, listening to CD's. There's a lot one can do through their own version of being self taught.

 

[king_biscuit]

Slap is a physical technique and that technique can be taught rather quickly (conceptually), although it will certainly take a while for the student to practice and develop any proficiency. So I agree that slap is not something I would pay a teacher to teach to me. Physical techniques are easy to understand and learn -- although they make take many hours of practice to develop. Something like music theory and it's application to jazz for example is a lifelong study and one can always benefit from a competent teacher for that.

Good to see you back, Jeff, I have been a fan of your playing for 35 years.

 

[Acoustic356]

Jeff... who taught you how to slap?

 

[DWBass]

I honestly feel a very low % of musicians, amateur and pro had very little formal instruction on their main instruments. Beyond primary school, which is mostly band and orchestral instruments. I played a handful of different instruments (trumpet, trombone, violin) and received basic instruction. I then decided to try guitar. No instruction beyond a learning book. Then switched to bass which I also eventually bought a learning book.

As for slap, it was a very slow learning process for me. It didn't come naturally (I'm a black guy....shouldn't it be? LOL). I'm a solid slapper now but definitely no Victor Wooten. Old school funk style works best for me. I figured it out by accident and slowly went from there. There was no internet when I started playing (70's) and I never saw any videos or performances on TV to witness how. Trial and error. In hindsight, I should have received some instruction on playing technique as my left and right hands are not as coordinated as I'd like when playing solos and fast arpeggios. If I were a fulltime musician I would have probably spent a lot more time playing and developing my craft.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff... who taught you how to slap?

I'm self taught, and, except for one reasonably memorable slap line, I am a mediocre slapper.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I honestly feel a very low % of musicians, amateur and pro had very little formal instruction on their main instruments. I'm a solid slapper now but definitely no Victor Wooten. Old school funk style works best for me. I figured it out by accident and slowly went from there.

Victor Wooten is a self taught bass player. His approach to learning is how all slappers have learned this style. by being in charge of what and how they learned to play. You were taught from the same philosophy. All slappers were because the approach works.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This link shows one of the most innovative jazz pianists who ever lived, Bill Evans, discussing learning. What makes the first minute and twenty seconds so brilliant is that he included in his comments everyone that is new to playing or to music itself. He was talking about beginners and people not familiar with the truth of what becoming a good player requires.

After the first 1:20, ask yourselves if your bass teachers have fulfilled their responsibility in the way that Evans commented about. This is important to think about especially if you are in a music school or studying with a teacher at this time. I truly hope to inspire people to aim higher seeking qualified teaching rather than what is being offered to you at this time in bass education. You might not like my comments, but, you aren't getting what you think you are and you need to research this beyond what your teachers say about this. But, if your bass teacher is giving you weekly assignments to practice where solid harmonic and rhythmic principles are given to you to work on, then stay where you are.

 

[mobdirt]

I started by watching flea on the higher ground video and a couple articles in bass player. Then I learned every chili peppers song, grover washington “winelight” album, and “peg”. At that point you pretty much have slap figured out. I’ve never found a use for anything more advanced than that in music that I like. I’m 40.

im 40 too, i learned to slap at around 18 (mel bay book helped), 7 years (approx) ago i started learning the reverse slap technique from Victor Wooten's videos and had to learn how to slap in a different way (passing the string after slapping in order to position the thumb for the reverse slap for one), worth checking out

 

[JeffBerlin]

My main question would be if, and how many, self-taught instructors got a degree (or at least a type of certification) in some form of pedagogy. If yes, then there is some debate to all this. If not, then why are they teaching anything in the first place? At least without being straight forward about such facts.

I feel confident that many teachers are hired for their playing ability, not their teaching ability. I would love to know if there are bass teachers that view the teaching of musical content as an exclusive teaching principle. I would support and applaud their stand for teaching required principles to their students. We need more teachers like these.

 

[Acoustic356]

I'm self taught, and, except for one reasonably memorable slap line, I am a mediocre slapper.

I think your slap could be improved... if you sat down with a self taught slapper to understand what they are doing.

A key concept that I think you're overlooking is that, although there is formal education, a lot of musical knowledge is passed down from musician to musician.

I was a guitarist before I took up the bass. A classically trained guitarist. I learned to read, and took 6 semesters of guitar in college from a well known classical guitarist. With all of the reading and playing that I did, I did not sound like Segovia. My playing improved a lot more in a week, hanging out with a self taught kid from Spain who grew up in the culture playing with his friends.

Playing with feeling and emotion cannot be taught.

Listen to a formally taught blues player and listen to BB King and ask yourself which moves me more?

As far as how bass sits in the mix... what I enjoy... what a lot of others enjoy? (Which is the purpose... right?) May not be technically perfect, but the feeling... the joy... the happiness that I get... that we get when we hear it is what matters the most.

 

[Acoustic356]

Jeff is not only Slapping - he's also Tapping. drool

I've noticed that Jeff is using the "OFPF" - one finger per fret technique while playing on frets 2, 3, 4. I like it , but my TB colleagues - converts from the Double Bass - have given me a lot of grief about it.

Frets on a bass are wider than frets on a guitar. If you're on a 35" or even a 36" scale bass, it might prove to be difficult in the lower register.

It also depends a lot on WHAT you are playing. Sometimes it's expedient, sometimes it isn't.

This is Big Mikey C... would you say that he's wrong for not using "finger per fret?"

The only person that system matters to is the player... not the audience.