Ahhh! I think I misunderstood where you were coming from until I read this. Got it now and agree completely.
Excellent discussion topics and I'm really enjoying wrapping my head around your answers.
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Jeff Berlin's thought about learning (if this is in your interest to do.)
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Ahhh! I think I misunderstood where you were coming from until I read this. Got it now and agree completely.
Excellent discussion topics and I'm really enjoying wrapping my head around your answers.
This is very true. Teaching a young child is different to teaching an adult. Teaching one child can be very different to teaching another child.
I don't know Jeff at all (he may be one of those people that is easily brilliant at everything he tries) but my guess is that there are probably things in life that some find very easy to learn that Jeff struggles at.
I have two daughters who started guitar very young. They appeared to have exceptional natural sense of rhythm from three or four onwards and can pick up quite complex rhythms very easily. Conversely there are people I have tried to teach very basic rhythms who appear to have no internal rhythm at all. Can you actually teach rhythm to someone that can't even tap to a beat?
Was my daughter's "natural ability" (like that of the 5 year old Jeff) actually a natural internal thing or was it a product of being exposed to music constantly from a very young age? On the other side, I have had good rhythm since i can remember but there wasn't a single musical person in my family.
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I'll take as stab at what Jeff might be meaning by this...
1) If you learn a "lick", mainly because it sounds cool, then you have something that you can play. However, you don't know what to do with it.
2) If you break the lick down and determine that there are no sharps or flats, and then you find out that the key of "C" and "A minor" have no sharps or flats, and then you learn what notes on your fretboard have no sharps or flats, then you can see how you would go about applying the lick that you learned.
The difference in the two is that you had to learn a lot of music theory in step 2 (making the lick useful) that had to take place outside of step 1 (learning the lick itself).
And you could have done step 2 without ever having actually learned the lick.
I really believe it's innate. How could anyone argue that certain people don't have more "natural" talent than others? On my level, I've had students over the years that varied wildly in innate ability.
Some just didn't get it, and not for a lack of trying. Perhaps it was my fault as their instructor but I've seen the broad variety of talent. We can all see it even on the professional/international level. Not gonna name names but some people, like JB, just have that special extra "something" that places them at the pinnacle of the art. Others, try as they might, just don't have that level of talent. If you've seen the movie, "Amadeus", you understand.
Hi Jeff, thank you for bringing some non-traditional ideas regarding learning here. I am admittedly a "victim" of scale learning/applying which i focused on for some time. As such, while soloing my mind is in the way of the playing, thinking of the chords, scales, etc. and I end up disconnected from the music. Not always, but enough times to know something that needs to be corrected/worked on. What type of "un-learning" would you suggest for us "scale learners"? (I have begun singing more and believe this has been quite helpful.). Thank you!
I might have questioned #1 at one point, but I'm sure his reply to me would have been something like, "What are you going to play if you haven't learned about how music works?" And how can you argue with that? So now I'm not even going to bother.
People's biggest mistake with Jeff is confusing the messenger with the message. And every time I've questioned Jeff on a point because his delivery was abrasive, when I separated him from what he was saying and actually listened to the words and not the dude, his rationale for anything I thought was out to lunch made sense to me. Still don't always agree with him about matters of musical taste, still pissed he unfriended me on FB
but his raw info is solid and holds water under scrutiny.
Sorry to talk about you in front of you.
People's biggest mistake with Jeff is confusing the messenger with the message. And every time I've questioned Jeff on a point because his delivery was abrasive, when I separated him from what he was saying and actually listened to the words and not the dude, his rationale for anything I thought was out to lunch made sense to me. Still don't always agree with him about matters of musical taste, still pissed he unfriended me on FB
but his raw info is solid and holds water under scrutiny.Sorry to talk about you in front of you.
He used the phrase "detriment to learning". In my head that equates to "terrible" since the goal is to learn.
I'm asking purely to understand Mr. Berlin's point-of-view. I'm not attempting to bait an argument if that's what you think I was doing.
I have the utmost respect for Mr. Berlin, but since his opinions fly in the face of the majority of other teachers there is going to be a lot of confusion and a lot of questions for clarification. I don't envy him since human nature tends to form tribes among like-minded groups who then gang up against the minorities to silence them. You see it every day on the internet. You see it in history books in the lives of Gallileo and Einstein and many others as well
I, for one, am eager to learn new points of view on bass and be challenged by them. Lord knows I've struggled enough trying to teach myself 30 years knowing absolutely nothing.
Please teach on maestro!
Reading it is a great academic way. Listening to CD's and imitating what one hears is another. Playing live completes the experience.
Damn right! I feel the exact same way. "Groove" is a nebulous term that, to me, means playing the notes in a solidly rhythmic fashion that makes people want to dance. But not all music is meant to "groove," and it's a disservice to us to insist that we groove if the music isn't supposed to groove.
Yes! But, for the most part, it takes a separation from performing/playing to do so. Learning rhythm is teachable if your teacher assigns the right kind of music to practice.
You are completely correct! It is nearly impossible to assume that everyone has the same ability to either learn or play. But, here's the catch; for the most part, it is my opinion that bass players can ignore just about everything that is taught by top level bass players, schools, or almost any source of imparting musical information. Teachers don't seem to make music the paramount principle to practice. Instead, the principles of playing that we all learn as self taught bass players are being taught and for a lot of money. There does not exist any other method that I have found that gives such an equal opportunity to improve by in the pay-to-learn environment than being taught musical content.
This is why bass educators are displeased with me; I state that they are not fulfilling their principle goal which is to teach to bass players what they cannot acquire easily on their own, which is meaningful musical content to work on.
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But here's the thing; practicing the right stuff got me to hone my musical thing. It wasn't just there for the taking.
Realize that there are only two ways to learn how to play. I would invite people to see if they can come up with a third.
1. Being self taught.
2. Learning and practicing written music and perfect harmonic and rhythmical principles.
That's it! And if this short list remains unaltered, since everyone reading this are self taught (100% of everyone that plays bass are self taught including me) this leaves little room to embrace methods of bass that don't seem to have any precedence in how any other instrument is taught. This bears some thinking about.
This is very kind of you. But, I need to share something based on your post: Nothing that I stand for is considered non-traditional in how practically every other instrument is taught. It seems to be that only in the bass educational world (and maybe in the guitar world as well) are learning and practicing music viewed as non-traditional. Remember the two ways that I feel are the only ways that we all learn how to play; Being self taught and learning via the practicing of written and harmonic musical concepts. Ironically, this is not an odd concept anywhere except in bass education which is why I am distrustful of it. I won't ever comment on one's artistic choices and this represents their vision of musical beauty. But the academic concepts are, in my opinion, what has made it hard for some reading this to excel as players if this is your goal.
Mr. Berlin - you are making a great deal of sense. My confession -- I have played for nearly 40 years on various string instruments and with musicians ranging from hobbyists to Grammy award winners. I have been able to keep up and get referrals because I have good ears, the ability to lock with most any drummer and a knowledge of when and what not to play. But, truth is, my musical education is woefully deficient. Many of my closest friends are very accomplished Jazz players. I am embarrassed to play with them because I lack the foundation/music education to allow me to do so competently. I do want to remedy this. You stated above that there is a method that "gives everyone an equal chance at learning and improving as players and musicians." Would you please elaborate? I would like to know what method you are suggesting.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You are entirely fair and very kind in your comments about me. Thank you for offering such a sensitive and clear post.
Consider this: I am no better than anyone when it comes to playing. I simply am what I am as everyone else is. My comments are confined only to teaching and learning bass. My background began at age five when I was trained on violin for ten years. I am a self taught rocker starting at age 14. I went to Berklee in 1972 where students were taught only music and nothing else but music to practice. I've subsequently pursued studying with some of the greatest music teachers in music history including years with the late Charlie Banacos.
This nutshell background seems to make me a rather rare nut in the bass world. I am not sure that there is any other electric bass player who has sought out musical training for the four plus decades as I have. Again, this doesn't make me better than anyone as a player. But, it makes me privy to facts about learning that self taught bassists and fans of top names who mean well in their wish to enlighten players, but who teach principles that are unbelievably unjustifiable in musical terms. Thus, I seem the odd man out, and I am; I know how to make every single bass player here into a better player if they wish this because I understand that before we play with feeling, before we gig, before we come up with an idea on the bass, we first have to know what the notes are and where they are located on the bass neck. Other teachers don't do this which always concerned me.
Your artist and professional life are separate issues from improving as a bass player. It doesn't take ten years to do this; it takes around three months give or take to notice that you are more aware of what notes you are playing and why you even chose to play them.
If people have no interest in improving, this, of course, is their right. Many have told me this over the years, but I admit that it is an attitude that doesn't register with me. If you, however, want to learn more, it is a snap and it won't detract from your life as an artist or working musician.
There is meter in art. In learning, meter is best a malleable thing. This is why metronomes are a detriment to learning; the click is the priority, something that you must keep up with. But learning requires time to examine and go over musical principles that everyone can rhythmically understand anyway since they just about all are in some kind of a division or 4 or 8.
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