Double Bass John Goldsby on Red Mitchell

#2
I'm not familiar with the term "enclosure(s)" as JG describes below:

Bars 19–20 Mitchell elegantly outlines the turnaround. Note the enclosures preceding the root of the Gm7 (the notes Ab and Gb)

Is this a Thing? Aren't the Ab and Gb(F#) just the #11 and 3rd of the D7 chord?
Talk to me like I'm stoopid. Please. (I know you will.)
Thanks.
 
#3
Don Kasper said:
I'm not familiar with the term "enclosure(s)" as JG describes below:

Bars 19–20 Mitchell elegantly outlines the turnaround. Note the enclosures preceding the root of the Gm7 (the notes Ab and Gb)

Is this a Thing? Aren't the Ab and Gb(F#) just the #11 and 3rd of the D7 chord?
Talk to me like I'm stoopid. Please. (I know you will.)
Thanks.
Click to expand...

I've heard the term before used the way John used it, and... not even from John. Maybe David Baker? or one of his students. It means a note preceded and followed by a notes a half or whole step. I think it can be chromatic or diatonic or neither.
 
#5
Silevesq said:
Yes and no, to be clearer. What is the direction of these 2 notes, it is G. Both note Ab and Gb are considered chromatic approach to G. Say Ab to G or F#(Gb) to G. But you could also use them both Ab-F# to G or reversed F#-Ab to G.
These or called chromatic enclosure (used toward Gm7 but also C7 right after). We could also talk about diatonic one like in measure 41 where he is implying D7 F# and A to G.

By the way I didn't read the article so I do that and correct if I am wrong... Hope this help!
Click to expand...

If you didn't read the "read the article" how does this make you part of this conversation?
This's exactly why I don't do Talkbass much anymore.
 
#6
Tom Lane said:
I've heard the term before used the way John used it, and... not even from John. Maybe David Baker? or one of his students. It means a note preceded and followed by a notes a half or whole step. I think it can be chromatic or diatonic or neither.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Tom.
We just used to call this "approaching from a 1/2 step above or from a 1/2 step below".
I like thinking of, and hearing, the Ab primarily as the #11 of the D7 chord, whether it is "enclosing" or approaching a G, or not.
But that's me.
 
#7
I love me some enclosures. I've seen some people call it a "mordent" but enclosure seem to make more sense. Very beboppy.

I don't think of them as something intended to be part of any scale - just a sound that is delaying the eventual arrival at a destination. Kinda like when someone inserts a delayed iiV into a set of changes. It's just an embellishment and not something to outline some sort of tonality.
 
#8
Don Kasper said:
Thanks, Tom.
We just used to call this "approaching from a 1/2 step above or from a 1/2 step below".
I like thinking of, and hearing, the Ab primarily as the #11 of the D7 chord, whether it is "enclosing" or approaching a G, or not.
But that's me.
Click to expand...

Doesn't classical music have similar term? Quaver or some such? Ah, I remember now, I think it was in one of Dr Baker's bebop books because it became such a common melody in bop. At least, that's my recollection of the derivation of the term and the comment in the book when I first read it. It might not have been Dr. Baker but it seems pretty likely. It doesn't have to be just around the tonic, but I think it's almost always used to highlight a chord tone. Having said that, I'll have to keep an eye out for it surrounding a 9th.
 
#9
hdiddy said:
I love me some enclosures. I've seen some people call it a "mordent" but enclosure seem to make more sense. Very beboppy.

I don't think of them as something intended to be part of any scale - just a sound that is delaying the eventual arrival at a destination. Kinda like when someone inserts a delayed iiV into a set of changes. It's just an embellishment and not something to outline some sort of tonality.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, that's interesting. I think of them being used to drive home the harmony note more than an embellishment, in the way a Major 7th "summons" the tonic, or a #4 "begs for" the Natural 5th.
 
#10
Don Kasper said:
Thanks, Tom.
We just used to call this "approaching from a 1/2 step above or from a 1/2 step below".
I like thinking of, and hearing, the Ab primarily as the #11 of the D7 chord, whether it is "enclosing" or approaching a G, or not.
But that's me.
Click to expand...

And that's interesting too because I think of it the "other" way, that, effectively, I've moved the arrival of the Gm ahead a beat or more. But, maybe that's because bop melodies seem to anticipate the harmony so much, which is one of the great things bop taught us, IMO.
 
#11
Tom Lane said:
Doesn't classical music have similar term?
Click to expand...

Yes - there are a number of melodic devices, and from what I remember, those occur IN the measure containing the note - surrounding and/or delaying the (arrival) note in question...Not in the prior measure.
This is why I asked regarding the term "enclosure".
One other point - if the chord was Dmin7, instead of D7, (preceding the Gmin7), that Gb/F# would be an avoid note, no matter what you call it. This may lead a beginning player to assume that the Gb/F# is "cool" on the Dmin7, because it is an "enclosure".
IMO. (No "H" anymore!).
Thanks for your time and interest.
 
#12
Don Kasper said:
Yes - there are a number of melodic devices, and from what I remember, those occur IN the measure containing the note - surrounding and/or delaying the (arrival) note in question...Not in the prior measure.
This is why I asked regarding the term "enclosure".
One other point - if the chord was Dmin7, instead of D7, (preceding the Gmin7), that Gb/F# would be an avoid note, no matter what you call it. This may lead a beginning player to assume that the Gb/F# is "cool" on the Dmin7, because it is an "enclosure".
IMO. (No "H" anymore!).
Thanks for your time and interest.
Click to expand...

I thought there was a "general" rule in jazz that you can sub a Minor chord with a Dominant, no? So, your example is only true if the harmony player is playing that F Natural rather than subbing and playing an F#, is that right? So, whether a F Natural or F# is harmonically sound, in your not-so-humble-opinion ;) has to do with what the harmony player played?
 
#13
Tom Lane said:
I thought there was a "general" rule in jazz that you can sub a Minor chord with a Dominant, no? So, your example is only true if the harmony player is playing that F Natural rather than subbing and playing an F#, is that right? So, whether a F Natural or F# is harmonically sound, in your not-so-humble-opinion ;) has to do with what the harmony player played?
Click to expand...

Egg-zactly. If the chord/harmony being played is a Dmin7, I would avoid playing an F#/Gb in that measure, regardless of where we're going.
Any chord can take the place of another chord, I guess. I just like to support whatever is actually sounding at that time/in that measure.
In that measure, Mr. Mitchell soundly supported the D7 with 3 notes - D, Ab, F#. I dig his approach - it's the nomenclature of the Ab and Gb that I'm not digging.
Dig?
!!!!
Thanks.
 
#14
Don Kasper said:
Egg-zactly. If the chord/harmony being played is a Dmin7, I would avoid playing an F#/Gb in that measure, regardless of where we're going.
Any chord can take the place of another chord, I guess. I just like to support whatever is actually sounding at that time/in that measure.
In that measure, Mr. Mitchell soundly supported the D7 with 3 notes - D, Ab, F#. I dig his approach - it's the nomenclature of the Ab and Gb that I'm not digging.
Dig?
!!!!
Thanks.
Click to expand...

Dig! You think an F# played on the & of 4 over a Dm7 or Dm11 is that bad? I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to learn something. How about all of that harmonic leading that the boppers are credited with? Don't they advance the melody ahead of the arrival of the next chord? But they do so with the other "color" tones and skip that F# over the Dm7? What about D7#9 chords with both the F# and F Natural? What's the blues with all of the 7#9 chords in it? or am I adding incorrectly?
 
#15
Tom Lane said:
Dig! You think an F# played on the & of 4 over a Dm7 or Dm11 is that bad?
Click to expand...
YES. In my world. I'm not a big fan of that sound of mixing 3rds, and I think the use of it opens the door to "harmonic laziness" in young bassists' basslines. IMO.

Tom Lane said:
How about all of that harmonic leading that the boppers are credited with?
Click to expand...
In my world, I primarily attempt to support the harmony - the melodic dissonances/"harmonic leading" is effective BECAUSE of the momentary dissonance of the melody against the harmony.

Tom Lane said:
What about D7#9 chords with both the F# and F Natural?
Click to expand...
A D7#9 chord can be supported by either or both F/F#. IMO.

Tom Lane said:
What's the blues
Click to expand...
Again, the Blues vocabulary depends partly/(wholly?) on the dissonance of the min3 against a maj3.

IMO.
 
#18
Don Kasper said:
YES. In my world. I'm not a big fan of that sound of mixing 3rds, and I think the use of it opens the door to "harmonic laziness" in young bassists' basslines. IMO.


In my world, I primarily attempt to support the harmony - the melodic dissonances/"harmonic leading" is effective BECAUSE of the momentary dissonance of the melody against the harmony.


A D7#9 chord can be supported by either or both F/F#. IMO.


Again, the Blues vocabulary depends partly/(wholly?) on the dissonance of the min3 against a maj3.

IMO.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the detailed explanation Don. Excellent points, IMO. Particularly that playing "outside" is "mostly" effective in an "inside" context. And you're right of course that the Blues is a different beast, even a jazz blues and I have found that the "3rds" are where it's at on the Blues. I think it's a sign of a "developed" musician to understand and recognize how music works for them. I'm not there yet; still exploring, but I think I hear my "voice" developing. I'm definitely starting hear certain pitches as being crucial to a given tune's harmony at a specific spot. Then again, in my case, maybe it's just gas.
 
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